Question on Andre Agassi serve...

[gzhpcu]

Looking at his serve:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelSide1.mov

His arm does not pronate much after impact and his racket does not make a downward angle with his forearm like most good servers, yet his serve was still good. Wonder why?

Murray's serve is somewhat similar, little pronation after impact...

[johnyandell]

The turn of the upper arm in the upward swing is a critical contributor. The "pronation" is the indication of the extent of this acceleration. But players like AA or Sharapova or Murray turn less and probably are leaving speed on the table. But the ability to do this can also be related to ball toss position. And these guys all are toward the right.

[gzhpcu]

Thanks John. It is just that they all have coaches and access to high speed video surely, why don't they do something about it?

Well, probably because they are not tennisplayer.net members...

[tennis_chiro]

Thanks John. It is just that they all have coaches and access to high speed video surely, why don't they do something about it?

Well, probably because they are not tennisplayer.net members...

Phil, you have to remember anything above 30 fps was very rare until the Casio camera came out in 2008. I got mine in 2009. Certainly, Mike Agassi didn't have access to such technology when Andre was just a boy developing his habits.

On the other hand, now when there is so much more access to high speed video, coaches are still making the same mistakes to a large extent.

don

[gzhpcu]

Well, yes don, but they did have pretty good photography even in the 60's. Look at Richard Gonzalez here...



Surely one can figure it out...

[tennis_chiro]

That's a wonderful shot. Almost better than the classic Sampras shot at the top of his service motion just after contact. But it really wasn't that well understood. And, in fact, Mike had Pancho right there in Caesar's Palace setting an example for young Andre, but he never figured this part out. For a guy with his size (5' 10 or 5' 11), strength (working with Gil Reyes) and explosiveness, he should have been able to hit serves well into the 130's on a regular basis. As JY said, he left something on the table.

don

[stotty]

Thanks John. It is just that they all have coaches and access to high speed video surely, why don't they do something about it?

Well, probably because they are not tennisplayer.net members...

Most coaches in my vicinity aren't as knowledgeable as they could be and are ignorant of many things. I was incredibly ignorant about many things before latching on to this website. Coach education needs to be a top priority for governing bodies if good coaching is ever going to become standard.

I also think technique can be complex and easily misunderstood. Many people can't work out whether players are flipping or not and have trouble seeing the positions or misinterpret them. And I am not sure if John's discoveries haven't moved quicker than our ability to teach them effectively. It's one thing knowing, quite another to teach it. Coaching needs to catch up.

I found your thread topic interesting. I had a sneaking feeling it would be the sort of question John would answer best...and he did.

[gzhpcu]

I train now and then with an Argentine ex-ATP player, who played around 100, he is 40 years old, and a great player, has really helped me with my topspin groundstrokes, but really knows nothing about serve biomechanics, pronation etc. Even though he does pronate, he does it without knowing about it.

I also trained with another ex-ATP player Xavier Molino Piero, about 44 years old, was also around 100 and once played a three setter in Spain against Lendel. He, too, knows very little about serve biomechanics.

So, just being an ex-ATP player is not guarantee of being knowledgeable in the mechanics of strokes and serve. Especially the serve. I know of no tennis teacher in my area who has a profound understanding of the serve.

This is why John's site is so unique. Great biomechanics and advanced tennis articles. Find it great for any level of play. Pros, whose technique is missing something, could pick up a lot here...

[hockeyscout]

I train now and then with an Argentine ex-ATP player, who played around 100, he is 40 years old, and a great player, has really helped me with my topspin groundstrokes, but really knows nothing about serve biomechanics, pronation etc. Even though he does pronate, he does it without knowing about it.

I also trained with another ex-ATP player Xavier Molino Piero, about 44 years old, was also around 100 and once played a three setter in Spain against Lendel. He, too, knows very little about serve biomechanics.

So, just being an ex-ATP player is not guarantee of being knowledgeable in the mechanics of strokes and serve. Especially the serve. I know of no tennis teacher in my area who has a profound understanding of the serve.

This is why John's site is so unique. Great biomechanics and advanced tennis articles. Find it great for any level of play. Pros, whose technique is missing something, could pick up a lot here...

It is interesting to read about how everyone believes this is all coaching related problem. It is not. It's a player (and parent) related issue. How many players are on this site reading and reviewing this material, and holding us coaches and mentors accountable?

[gzhpcu]

It is interesting to read about how everyone believes this is all coaching related problem. It is not. It's a player (and parent) related issue. How many players are on this site reading and reviewing this material, and holding us coaches and mentors accountable. Athletes need to challenge coaches, and the ones destined for greatness will desperately seek out answers, identify the best specialists, find sites like this and fill in all the necessary gaps by taking personal accountability for their games, and careers. Perhaps their were some gaps in this area with Mr. Agassi that he never completely managed to get his genius IQ brain around at an early enough age.

I disagree. Unless the player is a natural talent and needs no coach for technique (like Roger Federer), or one needs advice. Youngsters will not understand the articles on this site. A non-playing parent wouldn't either. What are coaches being paid for anyway? If it is only hitting balls, then it is a trainer/sparring partner. If a coach is not up to speed, then he is just providing moral support, training routines, but doing nothing towards improving strokes.

[hockeyscout]

don_budge will kill me for posting another manifesto here (god I hate that word, its so old school communist sounding or something), however, I do want to discuss this matter a bit, and relay to an example of a kid I worked with today.

I see you point gzhpcu, however, here is how I look at it for whatever it is worth. If the youngster doesn't understand the article shouldn't the mentor (coach, teachers, whatever you want to call it) see if (a) their is an interest, and (b) work on encouraging that athlete to take accountability for their passion and get on it or (c) just grow together with your athlete and spend some quality time reading it, discussing it and having some fun trying to do it and get better!

A mentor basically gets paid to build independent pupils who can function without their end assistance (on the court, in life and business). If a mentor and a coach isn't up to speed, hey no problem, come on here, study, learn with the athlete and be a team. It takes a lot of years to be a good coach or mentor, so, that's life, whatever, work at it, and at the very least put into the kid a passion or love for it and you will be fine.

Nothing is wrong with a coach not knowing something, all a kid needs in my opinion is for a coach to keep 1 or 2 steps ahead of him.

I worked with a kid today, and his mommy is so hard on him.

His coach kind of gave up cause it was getting insane, and sent the kid to me! He knew the mom would behave nicely if he came over to my court because my whole family looks like a bunch of scary red neck hockey players from Moose Jaw Saskatchewan (and I have only ten teeth left in my mouth and wild red hair).

I have two hitting partners (one is the coaches 19 year old son), me, my daughter, wife and myself on the court.

The first thing I did with this very shy boy who is 11 is I let him stand, and everyone on the court came near and sat on one knee so we were looking up at him as I kind of figured he wasn't being given a chance to be his own boss much in life.

Being authoritative with athletes isn't something that works with certain athletes, and I figured this one is having a tough time with unrealistic expectations.

I asked the boy, (1) do you like tennis (he said yes - it surprised me, he looked like he did not want to be there, its okay, I will make him like tennis), (2) how do you like to learn, do you like someone talking to you or do you like to see it without noise [B](he prefered to watch - kind of figured that, everyone yells at him, and his coach calls him a mommy boy), (3) I asked him 'who is your favorite tennis player (he said Dimitriev), (4) I then told him, "Okay, when we do this serve you are Grigor, if something goes wrong it's not your fault" (kid is told he is a piece of shit, so I can see his frustration daily) , (5) I then asked him to explain to me how he likes to serve in 100 plus words, and if he did I would give him this awesome piece of chocolate (he does not like to talk, very shy, I got to open him up to go anywhere), (6) He explained what he wanted to do (great, I see and now understand the holes in the knowledge base before he even serves me a ball), (7) I ask him to serve (he does so badly, two of the hitting partners immediately get on him telling him what he is doing wrong, and I ask them nicely to be very silent), (8) I ask him, look how many balls do you want to serve, I have five in my hand (he says five - lying kid, he wants to leave my court, I can feel it), (9) I tell him, be Grigor, and try to be good on ball number five please, you are the boss on my court, you can do it for you, (10) He serves not so good, I ask him how he feels and what he thinks (he is finally starting to talk, come out of his shell and become engaged with us), (11) I take my two hitting partners to the side, we discuss the issue, so, one hitting partner will serve, and copy the kids mistakes, and the other hitting partner will coach his mistakes, I ask them to act like the worlds worst tennis coaches and bicker, fight and make a show of it (12) the hitting partner serves badly, makes errors, they start dramatically getting on each others case, and keep making the same obvious mistakes, and I sit next to the kid and laugh with him about how crazy this all looks (13) I then step in and go, "Look coach, you are fired" (I am sure the kid knows this is all a fun game), (14) I then pull the kid aside and say, "Look coach this hitting partner who can't serve, get him to do what he needs to do okay, do you understand what he needs to do, yes? (kid gets it by now, I think everyone has told him his errors a million times, he see's it, and of course I told him the errors as the hitting partners who doing their stique), (15) The kid "coaches", and suddenly the hitting partner is magically successful to the "amazement of everyone, (16) I then tell the young man, "Look, you get it, you are smart, you're a good boy, and understand one thing, this hitting partner who was coaching has played 15 years and you for 2, so it takes time to get it, and be good, however, you are figuring this out very fast it appears, so I will leave you with my eight year old daughter, the two of you will talk, have dialogue and we will be back in ten minutes to see how it is going now that you get it, (17) LOL, anyways we come back in ten minutes, my kid has made a grip change , and all of a sudden out of the blue he finally gets it after not getting it for the whole spring and summer (it was in their by the way)!

I called the mom over (we are on a special back court where no one is allowed to enter anymore), all of us told the mom how proud we were of the kid, and then I said in front of everyone I don't really care about the serve, if it goes in or out, all I care about is he's having fun, enjoying tennis, smiling, opening up to people and communicating, and with these five things in place our young Grigor will do just fine! Needless to say, he served nicely, and corrected a few things.

All we did was make the boy feel empowered, and take his development into his own hands.

I closed off by telling him if I see he is happy, smiling, talking the other kids in his group, and if his coaching pro says to me he tried hard, I will let him onto our back court where he can play with all of his friends, eat chocolate and have fun.

Then I complained, "Darn, I am going to spend a fortune on chocolate here because you do so darned good!"

Svita, great gal she is invited the mom to "coffee" tomorrow during his morning practice, so hopefully the young man is on the right track. I think we'll visit his court and cheer him on!

Anyways, that is how I see the big picture, and to go back to the original point, great coaching begins with players willing to buy in, be accountable and want to do it for you.

It was a interesting lesson for my hitting partners, and I hope they apply this towards their dealings with my young one.

By the way, my young one was great, she felt like a real pro giving an 11 year old a lesson, the kids all respect her a lot which is good, and of course, she thought her grip change and ten minutes of work with the kid were the game changers LOL.

So, I got a double whammy here!

But, doing it day in and day out like you guys do with 5-6 clients, man, I am kind of past that stage of my career as it is TOUGH! So, respect!

[stroke]

I train now and then with an Argentine ex-ATP player, who played around 100, he is 40 years old, and a great player, has really helped me with my topspin groundstrokes, but really knows nothing about serve biomechanics, pronation etc. Even though he does pronate, he does it without knowing about it.

I also trained with another ex-ATP player Xavier Molino Piero, about 44 years old, was also around 100 and once played a three setter in Spain against Lendel. He, too, knows very little about serve biomechanics.

So, just being an ex-ATP player is not guarantee of being knowledgeable in the mechanics of strokes and serve. Especially the serve. I know of no tennis teacher in my area who has a profound understanding of the serve.

This is why John's site is so unique. Great biomechanics and advanced tennis articles. Find it great for any level of play. Pros, whose technique is missing something, could pick up a lot here...

Remember the "get your serve down Pat" serve video lesson with Pat Rafter we were discussing here on a thread. Rafter, who certainly pronated correctly on his heavy kick serve
when he played on tour, was teaching the old carve method on the teaching video. As John would say, major disconnect.

[gzhpcu]

Remember the "get your serve down Pat" serve video lesson with Pat Rafter we were discussing here on a thread. Rafter, who certainly pronated correctly on his heavy kick serve
when he played on tour, was teaching the old carve method on the teaching video. As John would say, major disconnect.

Goran Ivanisevic was asked how he hit his serve. He thought a bit then said, "I throw up the ball and hit it".

Sampras was also asked the question, and he said he just did it, did not want try to explain for fear of losing it...

[stotty]

Goran Ivanisevic was asked how he hit his serve. He thought a bit then said, "I throw up the ball and hit it".

Sampras was also asked the question, and he said he just did it, did not want try to explain for fear of losing it...

I'm not sure about Sampras but one would imagine Goran's serve is entirely of his own development. You couldn't teach a kid to serve like that no matter how hard you tried. It cannot be cloned. It's truly unique.

He got terribly nervous in his Wimbledon final victory over Rafter yet despite the flux in going on his head his serve auto-piloted its way through...the sign of an outstanding shot.

[klacr]

Players on the ATP Tour had nightmares about trying to return that Ivanisevic serve. Very unique, very Goran.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton