Question on Andre Agassi serve...

[stroke]

Players on the ATP Tour had nightmares about trying to return that Ivanisevic serve. Very unique, very Goran.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

He had height, a very quick motion(somewhat like Tanner) and he was a lefty of course. I think one of the best servers of all time.

[don_budge]

Chicken or the Egg? Agassi and Bolletieri...the collaboration process

It is interesting to read about how everyone believes this is all coaching related problem. It is not. It's a player (and parent) related issue. How many players are on this site reading and reviewing this material, and holding us coaches and mentors accountable?

In the end it isn't so much one or the other. Largely coaching and student results can be determined to a large extent to the mutual collaboration between the two. It's a process...a process of engagement.

The student must bring curiosity and motivation to the table. The coach in the end must supply many things...including wisdom and experience. But neither is limited in their responsibilities, yet always looking for ways to expand them.

It's an ebb and flow...what a surprise. The student must learn to fly on their own. Getting him to that point is a long and arduous task. In the end...the student must be their own coach. If there is any interest in excelling.

Teaching a service motion is a tremendously arduous task. Certain students seem to have the idea already installed in them. That's great...but most do not. Andre Agassi is one of those that probably did not have it already installed in him so the question that I have is why didn't Nick Bolletieri or one of his minions not have the acumen to put him on a higher path. I ask myself the same question about Aaron Krickstein's service motion...why was that never developed into something elegant and powerful.

The answer is probably too obvious for anyone to guess it. But be that as it may...both of my examples were probably pioneers in some respects into the world of modern tennis. Certainly Aaron straddled that line of demarcation...perfect service motions are something that was noticeably missing from players "developed" at the Nick Bolletieri Academy.

[don_budge]

The Andre Agassi Serve...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andreagassi/aa_serve/aa_1st_serve/aa_1st_serve_ad/aa_1st_serve_ad.html?AA1stSDeuceFront1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andreagassi/aa_serve/aa_1st_serve/aa_1st_serve_ad/aa_1st_serve_ad.html?AA1stSDeuceRear1.mov

Actually come to think of it...for his size Agassi's serve was pretty darn good.

[gzhpcu]

Would be nice to see a future article identifying the core fundamentals on the serve. Those which you absolutely need to do, ignoring all those points which can be individualized (stance, take back, etc.).

[stotty]

I think it's patently obvious what has happened to the serving model over the years. As coaches have learnt more about the serve and identified the key positions, the key positions are what coaches focus on. At least this is certainly the case in my neck of the woods. Rhythm and weight transfer have very much taken a back seat.

You can see it most clearly in the women's game. It's never been easy to coach the serve to females -- they generally find it more difficult than men -- and you can clearly see where coaches would seem to have focused mostly on hitting positions and given less regard to fluidity.

I think the classic serve for those who don't have it in their blood to start with, is an immense task. It's a step by step business...little by little. It takes patience, commitment and a good deal of hard work and practice. It's close to impossible to achieve once a player has past a given point in their development.

[GeoffWilliams]

Close to impossible: I know that feeling! The only path is hard work. Video also shows the continued failures. HOw do you teach someone to externally rotate, and then internally rotate, and leverage up with their shoulder? It's too much to hold and too much to do. Most just learn by watching and imitating. Most teachers games are not very good. Ever see Richard Williams hit? Nick B.? ? They suck as players and not one of them ever made a dime in a tournament. As any player older who has ever tried to learn to hit an atp snap back fh, or serve can tell you, it is close to impossible. The women don't even hit over heads anymore, just high fh.

[johnyandell]

Robert played number one at pepperdine, got to the ncaa semis (I think it was semis) and was a college all american.

[hockeyscout]

Agreed

I think the classic serve for those who don't have it in their blood to start with, is an immense task.

Agree. 100%.

[hockeyscout]

Close to impossible: I know that feeling! The only path is hard work. Video also shows the continued failures. HOw do you teach someone to externally rotate, and then internally rotate, and leverage up with their shoulder? It's too much to hold and too much to do. Most just learn by watching and imitating. Most teachers games are not very good. Ever see Richard Williams hit? Nick B.? Robert L.? They suck as players and not one of them ever made a dime in a tournament. As any player older who has ever tried to learn to hit an atp snap back fh, or serve can tell you, it is close to impossible. The women don't even hit over heads anymore, just high fh.

You could study any video you want, get $800 an hour coaching, work at it 24-7, have passion, work ethic and all the rest, however, one in in 7 billion people will have Pete Sampras' timing, double joints, rotator cuff, wrist strength, long arms and reach. Good luck teaching it. Agassi probably maxed out his potential, and just could not do the physical things necessary to perform a great serve. Some athletes are easier to "fire" than others because they have certain genetic traits.

You've got to know what you have sometimes as a coach, and what you don't have. Perhaps that was the genius of Nick B, Mike A and Pancho with Andre, they probably knew they lacked some genetics for the serve, speed was a major problem and size even bigger, so they taught him to take the ball on the rise, make his motion VERY efficient, make him stop - start - accelerate and decelerate better than any tennis player in the history of the game (many guys were faster, however, Agassi's running is unbelievable in every aspect and he always gets to the ball at the right time), excel in the return to serve (quickstrike game) and of course put a bit of a boxers skill set and engagement into what he did where he could step in and just kill you if you gave him an opening. I thought about this a bit longer and harder today, maybe they did do a better job working with what they had than we figured.

[hockeyscout]

Would be nice to see a future article identifying the core fundamentals on the serve. Those which you absolutely need to do, ignoring all those points which can be individualized (stance, take back, etc.).

- Magic rotator cuff
- Correct body proportions
- Size is a plus
- Heavy bones
- Perfect rib cage stability

I'd say the same as a NFL QB, or MLB pitcher, and their have been a lot of studies done on this in those two specific sports.

To bad Roger Clements did not play tennis. Can you imagine what he'd serve like with the above five mentioned tools!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gR6u-nAMII

[gzhpcu]

Those are not the core fundamentals I am talking about hockeyscout. You are describing the physical makeup. I am referring to things such as: keeping head still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc.

[don_budge]

hockeyscout and geoffwilliams...

Close to impossible: I know that feeling! The only path is hard work. Video also shows the continued failures. HOw do you teach someone to externally rotate, and then internally rotate, and leverage up with their shoulder? It's too much to hold and too much to do. Most just learn by watching and imitating. Most teachers games are not very good. Ever see Richard Williams hit? Nick B.? ? They suck as players and not one of them ever made a dime in a tournament. As any player older who has ever tried to learn to hit an atp snap back fh, or serve can tell you, it is close to impossible. The women don't even hit over heads anymore, just high fh.

Thanks johnyandell for casting the reality of Robert Lansdorp's tennis playing ability...he is truly a great and respected tennis teacher and was an accomplished tennis player. One of the biggest honors ever for me as a tennis coach was to have my name used in the same sentence as Robert Lansdorp's. It happened right here on the forum...rightfully or wrongfully.

Robert played number one at pepperdine, got to the ncaa semis (I think it was semis) and was a college all american.

I really am enjoying you two guys...geoffwilliams and hockeyscout. We all are. But where is the bit about Robert Lansdorp geoffwilliams? The bit where you are roundly accusing him of being just another hack. To lump Robert Lansdorp with Richard Williams and "Nick B." is such a huge miss...you need a much bigger racquet to accommodate such a wild swing. So much for the technology. I never knew of Lansdorp's playing abilities but I would have guessed from the quality of his knowledge and wisdom that he was accomplished. A great teacher would have to be at least an accomplished player.

So if we can apply the associative properties of logic...everything that comes out of your corner from now on must be taken with a huge grain of salt.

I sincerely hope that you take our fledgling tennis coach under your wing...it will take years for him to find the light of day after your tutelage. Great stuff...both of you!

[don_budge]

The Classic Serve Motion...and the Golf Swing

I think the classic serve for those who don't have it in their blood to start with, is an immense task. It's a step by step business...little by little. It takes patience, commitment and a good deal of hard work and practice. It's close to impossible to achieve once a player has past a given point in their development.

It's a beautiful description Stotty...attainable by anyone. According to Carl Jung we all have access to the Collective Unconscious...it is only a matter of being engaged. With life...with the universe as it is.

I took my first golf lesson on my 40th birthday. I eventually mastered the game of golf. Does one ever really master such a thing? Two weeks ago I went out and played an even par round from tee to green...without having played a single round in three years. For some inexplicable reason...I had a "perfect swing".

It was an immense task to learn not only the full swing...but all of the other swings. I did it precisely as you outlined it..."It's a step by step business...little by little. It takes patience, commitment and a good deal of hard work and practice."

I took some lessons...I had a lot of help from a lot of different people. I read everything from Bobby Jones, Byron Nelson, Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus to Tiger Woods. I played with Mizuno mp33 blades. But eventually I became my own coach. I learned everything from the process of becoming a tennis player...then I used the associative properties of match play and spinning the ball as my universal guide. It was a tough road at times...but I stuck with it. Never got paid a dime to do it...so why did I climb that mountain? For the love of the game. The game came to me.

Teach your student the grip, setup position, the backswing, the point in between the backswing and forward swing, the forward swing, the follow through and how to relax throughout the whole process. It isn't easy...but on the other hand it isn't out of reach for anyone that wants to pay the price...the price of admission.

[bottle]

Nice.

[hockeyscout]

Those are not the core fundamentals I am talking about hockeyscout. You are describing the physical makeup. I am referring to things such as: keeping head still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc.

I am pretty sure you will never have a "head still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc.still, forearm rotation, external shoulder rotation, etc," if you do not have certain genetic qualities to begin with in the first place. If you tried to teach Sampras' or Ruddick's core fundamentals you'd likely ruin a good young arm. It's all about molding clay, and not trying to build a rock. Every player is different, however, I am sure we can all agree you need to be born with some tools.