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2014 Wimbledon Championships...London, England

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  • I think you are overestimating Roger's sliced backhand if you think it can play a key tactical role in beating Djokovic or Nadal...especially Nadal. He simply doesn't hit his slice backhand well enough for that. Sure, it can neutralise a rally at times but on the other side of the coin it doesn't present too much of a problem to Djokovic or Nadal either. don_budge pointed out that Djokovic cannot do much with Roger's sliced backhand and this is true, but it doesn't present much difficulty for Djokovic either. Against Nadal it has no effect. In fact it often presents an opportunity for Nadal to run around and hit his forehand.

    Roger has better luck hitting slice to Djokovic's forehand than to his backhand...yet it does nothing to impair Nadal's forehand...nothing. If Roger can slice his backhand well enough down the line to Djokovic's forehand he often gets a decent result as Djokovic has trouble getting under it. I've seen Tommy Haas execute this tactic to good effect more frequently and better than Roger does it. It's a chink, albeit a small one.

    Roger has been able to do little to avert the pattern of play that always develops in his matches with Nadal. There are two problems here. Nadal has a better forehand and, in my view, a better backhand. It's tough to get round that just by having more versatility.

    It seems to me Roger has two key ways to start points off on his own terms: off his serve and off his opponents weaker second serves when they come around. And he must impose himself early in both situations. Once rallies have gone beyond six or seven strokes and Djokovic or Nadal are hitting a length it gets really difficult for Roger to change the dynamic. Hitting a length does seem to negate even the best shotmakers, even Roger. The tactical conundrum for Roger is how to win a hatful or more of the longer rallies as they crop up...what to do...how can he do it?

    On the issue of volleying. None of the top three volley well. I actually think Nadal closes down and mops up the best...and his backhand volley is decent; his forehand volley is mediocre. Djokovic has hands like planks of wood at the net and is stumped with anything the requires anything slightly intricate. Roger isn't great either. But this is just the times...players across the tour don't volley well generally. At Wimbledon this year I witnessed many doubles matches where all four players stayed back on the baseline after serving.

    Hope this post reads okay...writing on a tiny smart phone from Venice is tricky...especially when you're not used to a touch pad.
    Last edited by stotty; 07-10-2014, 12:35 AM.
    Stotty

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    • Post reads great Stotty. Good insights.

      In regards to the slice, Federer's backhand slice ranks near the top of the game. However, his shot selection on when to use it is troubling. When he has a chance to hit a driving slice he tends to be stubborn and drive over the ball. I'd love to see Federer really lean that right shoulder into the ball, get those hips low and hit a nice slice drive following it into the net. Of course the situation for this type of shot needs to present itself. Dealing with deep groundstrokes at a high speed and 3000 rpms will certainly limit Federer's chances to do it, but when there is an opportunity, he has to take it.

      Federer's slice does work better against the Djokovic forhand than backhand as Stotty mentioned. Why? All about the grips. Djokovic's forehand grip is not conducive to those low balls. Whenever I see a player or student with a grip like that, I always like to hit them some slices to show them the challenge we will face when working with that grip and improving that stroke in the future. Ahhh yes, the slice backhand. Another gorgeous stroke that simply does not get its due.

      As for the volleys of the big three (Federer, Djokovic, Nadal) they may not be exactly textbook but the thing that fans and teachers have to realize is that the lack of proper volleying fundamentals is more a result of the improvement and development of huge groundstrokes. Hitting forehands like the big three does allow for ventures to the net, but considering the defensive ball their opponents send back, sadly, even mediocre volley technique will be enough to put away such a weak reply. Back when groundstrokes weren't supersonic, players had to develop another layer to their game to find ways to win, thus hitting great volleys was not optional, it was mandatory. Getting to the net with conviction was expected and doing something with the first volley was tactical in nature, not an easy putaway where any technique will suffice.

      Stotty, glad you are contributing while being in Venice. Very impressive commitment. Discussing tennis while amongst the grand canal and Piazza San Marco can be a bit surreal.
      I'll try to keep that same level of fanaticism to this forum next week when I venture to Vail, Colorado. Hiking, running, fine dining and wrestling with hungry bears for mountain supremacy on the agenda.

      Kyle LaCroix USPTA
      Boca Raton

      Comment


      • Originally posted by klacr View Post
        Post reads great Stotty. Good insights.

        In regards to the slice, Federer's backhand slice ranks near the top of the game. However, his shot selection on when to use it is troubling. When he has a chance to hit a driving slice he tends to be stubborn and drive over the ball. I'd love to see Federer really lean that right shoulder into the ball, get those hips low and hit a nice slice drive following it into the net. Of course the situation for this type of shot needs to present itself. Dealing with deep groundstrokes at a high speed and 3000 rpms will certainly limit Federer's chances to do it, but when there is an opportunity, he has to take it.

        Federer's slice does work better against the Djokovic forhand than backhand as Stotty mentioned. Why? All about the grips. Djokovic's forehand grip is not conducive to those low balls. Whenever I see a player or student with a grip like that, I always like to hit them some slices to show them the challenge we will face when working with that grip and improving that stroke in the future. Ahhh yes, the slice backhand. Another gorgeous stroke that simply does not get its due.

        As for the volleys of the big three (Federer, Djokovic, Nadal) they may not be exactly textbook but the thing that fans and teachers have to realize is that the lack of proper volleying fundamentals is more a result of the improvement and development of huge groundstrokes. Hitting forehands like the big three does allow for ventures to the net, but considering the defensive ball their opponents send back, sadly, even mediocre volley technique will be enough to put away such a weak reply. Back when groundstrokes weren't supersonic, players had to develop another layer to their game to find ways to win, thus hitting great volleys was not optional, it was mandatory. Getting to the net with conviction was expected and doing something with the first volley was tactical in nature, not an easy putaway where any technique will suffice.

        Stotty, glad you are contributing while being in Venice. Very impressive commitment. Discussing tennis while amongst the grand canal and Piazza San Marco can be a bit surreal.
        I'll try to keep that same level of fanaticism to this forum next week when I venture to Vail, Colorado. Hiking, running, fine dining and wrestling with hungry bears for mountain supremacy on the agenda.

        Kyle LaCroix USPTA
        Boca Raton
        I would like to recommend a very good restaurant in Vail, Up The Creek. It is my favorite restaurant in all of Colorado. http://www.vailupthecreek.com/

        Also, you might want to try some serve and volley in the altitude. The thin air makes your serve bigger.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lobndropshot View Post
          I would like to recommend a very good restaurant in Vail, Up The Creek. It is my favorite restaurant in all of Colorado. http://www.vailupthecreek.com/

          Also, you might want to try some serve and volley in the altitude. The thin air makes your serve bigger.
          Thanks for suggestions for Vail lobndropshot.

          I've always been interested to see my game in altitude. Gimme a slick indoor court or properly manicured grass court and I'm in heaven. Altitude may be too much of a good thing. Sadly, this is not a tennis trip, actually some tennis R&R and a chance to see some clients and research and development regarding a few other ventures I'm involved with. I'll be in Bachelor's Gulch specifically.

          My dining Itinerary includes Zach's Cabin as well as Restaurant Kelly Liken. A little brainstorming and some seasonal menu development for future plans. And if I'm successful in my feats of strength in wrestling bouts with a wild bear, perhaps a Bear Ballotine with fresh herbs, scalloped gold potatoes, roasted summer carrots and a pickled cranberry jus. Just an idea. if I lose, The bear will have me for dinner. End of story.

          But back to the tennis...

          Is it just me or is anyone else following the ATP Tour this week? Final grass court event of the season in Newport, Rhode Island. A little Wimbledon hangover is understandable.

          Stuttgart's final year on the slow red clay before they switch to...GRASS COURTS!!

          The beautiful and scenic waterfront town of Bastad, Sweden. Still clay, but with a nice view.

          As for the previous Federer posts, what will it take for him to change his game and improve at this stage in his career? Is it too late? Would he even want to? What coach would be ideal for Federer? A tactical defensive minded coach? Names? Is it too late to teach a player of Federer's caliber some sound tactics, or will we just continue to see an abundance of glorious shotmaking when in trouble but with minimal purpose to the overall dynamics of the match?

          Kyle LaCroix USPTA
          Boca Raton

          Comment


          • Even though it's obvious that fed is lifting his hitting foot too early, which de-grounds him, and makes it an inconsistent shot on high balls, he won't stop doing it. That's the one reason why Nadped beats him: he hits %85 of his shots high to feds bh. fed can only answer with a short cc bh slice, that Nadped can take anywhere he wants to.

            It that's so obvious to me, a casual by stander, why is it not obvious to fed? All he has to do is start grounding, his bh hitting foot, and bending his knees down low even on high bh, and learn to drive through the ball by starting high, just as all top pros do on their fhs, they don't go low to high on fh high balls, so why does fed try to go low to high on his bh or just slice it?

            Comment


            • Geoff, On this comparison video betweem Federer's and Henin's backhands, one can see clearly what you mean....

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqBEErW0vTA

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              • YOu can see it at 8:29 of that video, how his hitting foot heel raises off the ground too early, causing lack of confidence in the shot.

                Comment


                • What's too early...what's too late? I can't see anything significant in this heel business. It probably has more to do with Roger having a more conservative grip than Henin or Wawrinka. A stronger grip may have helped Federer cope with Nadal's forehand better over the years...too late now.
                  Stotty

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                  • John McEnroe commenting at Wimbledon...

                    Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post
                    What's too early...what's too late? I can't see anything significant in this heel business. It probably has more to do with Roger having a more conservative grip than Henin or Wawrinka. A stronger grip may have helped Federer cope with Nadal's forehand better over the years...too late now.
                    Utter nonsense about lifting the heel...glad you picked up on that. I didn't want to be the one to burst the bubble.

                    Listen up...it is John McEnroe and Mats Wilander in the booth. Two of the most respected voices in tennis. Johnny pontificating...I am listening Johnny. So is Mats for that matter. So is anybody that knows anything about tennis. Love him or hate him...he knows what he is talking about. He doesn't need a second opinion. Nobody talks about tennis like my man McEnroe. He talks like me. Classic tennis. Straight talk.

                    Cut to the quick and skip the nonsense altogether. No prisoners. No compromises. Why bother?



                    Last edited by don_budge; 07-17-2014, 11:33 PM. Reason: for clarity's sake...
                    don_budge
                    Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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                    • The Driving Slice down the line before the "Hot Shot"...

                      Check out the Federer Hot Shot here in this ATP website:

                      The official source for the latest news from the ATP Tour and the world of men's professional tennis.


                      See how that driving slice down the line sets up the forehand "Hot Shot". That slice is the existential key to Federer. That shot mixed with the vast array of variety that the slice backhand offers is the key to his career at this point...particularly at Wimbledon where he didn't use it enough versus Djokovic in the final. On grass this shot neutralizes the typical ATP forehand when used correctly and at the correct moment. Here he is set up beautifully to use it and use he does to his advantage. For me...this is the true "Hot Shot". Not the wonderfully struck forehand. It's subtle.

                      He should be using that shot to approach the net as well. Notice how even in this rally with Murray that his topspin backhand tends to land right smack dab in the middle of the court.

                      The topspin sure looks nice...it sure looks elegant. But it is the utility value of the slice and all of the variations that make it such a tactical gem. I would recommend exploring use of the underspin on the forehand side as well when the occasion calls for it as a tactical maneuver...particularly when it comes to approaching the net. Even as a change of pace tactic.

                      The other thing too, is that these types of shot enhance the net play and complement the volley stroke. The use of underspin is not limited to strictly net play although net play should use strictly underspin.

                      If you watched any of the John McEnroe versus Bjorn Borg 1980 U. S. Open Final you see how effectively McEnroe uses this as his bread and butter shot mixed judiciously with the topspin off of the backhand although he was "committing the cardinal sin" at times and even using underspin on his forehand. Gasp! Using both varieties of spin has the added effect of never allowing your opponent to get in a groove against your topspin drives. There are a bunch of different ways to win a tennis match...ranging from brute force to shrewd analysis and tactics.

                      Warning...this may be too sophisticated for the Neanderthal approach. Evolution...devolution.
                      Last edited by don_budge; 08-15-2014, 10:14 PM. Reason: for clarity's sake...
                      don_budge
                      Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

                      Comment


                      • The Driving Slice down the line before the "Hot Shot"...

                        Originally posted by don_budge View Post
                        Check out the Federer Hot Shot here in this ATP website:

                        The official source for the latest news from the ATP Tour and the world of men's professional tennis.


                        It was interesting that at Wimbledon Federer never once to my memory used this shot. This was an aggressive slice down the line from a less than defensive position. This shot offers all kinds of accuracy versus his topspin that all too often sets up in the middle of the court. With this shot it is easier to maintain depth towards the baseline and more laser like precision on the sidelines.

                        The only time that he utilized the slice was purely from a defensive position but this is the tactic that I am advocating...at least one in a plethora of options that the slice backhand offers.

                        This type of driving slice is very effective to approach the net behind...the momentum of the body towards the net is more easily maintained when compared to the topspin drive approach. The crossover footwork also enables the attacking player to gain valuable forward movement very quickly as the shot is being played. Whereas the topspin drive must be hit from a more stationary and stable base...the upwards movement of the follow through also impedes that initial burst of quickness towards the net.

                        It is amazing that he doesn't utilize this type of aggressive drive to Nadal's backhand when he has the opportunity...he might not win with the initial play but the response from his opponent might offer him an opening such as the reply from Murray did.
                        Last edited by don_budge; 08-16-2014, 09:54 AM. Reason: for clarity's sake...
                        don_budge
                        Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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                        • Originally posted by don_budge View Post
                          It is amazing that he doesn't utilize this type of aggressive drive to Nadal's backhand when he has the opportunity...he might not win with the initial play but the response from his opponent might offer him an opening such as the reply from Murray did.
                          Exactly...

                          This is what I was referring to in a recent post of mine. Dimitrov had some success doing this against Nadal earlier in the year. It's a chink. By slicing aggressively to Nadal's backhand Nadal often popped up a weaker shot that Dimitrov could scoot around and belt a forehand.

                          I think Federer can be questioned tactically despite his massive success...at least against Nadal. If you factor the sliced backhand in with some good serving and a few other tactical bits and bobs it might make all the difference. I think his sliced backhand is an excellent neutralising shot but not so much of a weapon as it could be.
                          Last edited by stotty; 08-16-2014, 01:03 PM.
                          Stotty

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                          • Yeah, I'm not so sure about that Stotty..Nadal is probably the last person i would open the court to. When you go down the line, you better hurt him.

                            I think Roger's problem is two fold, one is, of course, the match up problem..Nadal OWNS every right handed, one handed player. Secondly, I just dont think HE thinks he can beat Rafa anymore, which transcends supposed tactics..He just can't pulll the trigger and execute at crunch time.

                            Comment


                            • He did well to crunch Ferrer in the third (Cincinnati).

                              Comment


                              • Ferrer, a great player who appears to have gotten every ounce of potential out of himself, is just a terrible match up vs Fed. Federers issue with Nadal comes down to one massive issue, Nadal's forehand. Sure it is the leftiness issue, but no other left forehand seems to get to him, not even Verdasco, whose forehand is somewhat similar, but not as brutally oppressive over and over again.

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