Interactive Forum June 2014: Dominic Thiem Forehand

[johnyandell]

Dominic Thiem Forehand

We looked at Dominic's wonderful backhand previously. Since then he recorded a big time win over Stan Wawrinka and a big part of that was his forehand. It's a powerful, technically superb weapon. Interestingly, it's hit with a double bend hitting arm structure, like Novak Djokovic, though with a slightly less extreme grip. What else though? Your thoughts please!

[johnyandell]

Dominic Thiem Forehand

[gzhpcu]

He seems not to be really getting his weight into the ball, his weight seems on his back foot, coming forward late...

[stotty]

Can't view the clip. I'm just getting a blank, white square where the video should be. Anyone else having a problem?

[vrc10s]

Can't view the clip. I'm just getting a blank, white square where the video should be. Anyone else having a problem?

Mine is fine

[tennis_chiro]

Where is his axis of rotation?!

He seems not to be really getting his weight into the ball, his weight seems on his back foot, coming forward late...

I was looking at your post and trying to make sense of it and a little different way of thinking about it came to mind. I'm always trying to bring up the fact that the human body is working with pulleys and levers and angular forces to create movement. Dominic is actually rotating about an axis of rotation that is closer to his neck than his left shoulder and left hip and left foot. His maximum leverage would be to place the fulcrum solidly at his left foot and shoulder giving him the greatest lever arm to act on the ball and the greatest racket head velocity. His axis seems to be closer to the middle of his body and maybe on the right side of his head and neck. But given that placement of the axis of rotation, he is meeting the ball in front of that axis to give him power going perpendicular to the lever arm as the ball is contacted.

What do you think of that way of looking at it, Phil?

don

[gzhpcu]

Well don, maybe I am old fashioned, but I always felt moving into the ball, getting your weight into it was also an important factor.

I agree with the points you brought up but you need to transfer the body weight forward to achieve a longer hitting zone and power IMHO.

[tennis_chiro]

The Myth of Stepping Into the Shot

Well don, maybe I am old fashioned, but I always felt moving into the ball, getting your weight into it was also an important factor.

I agree with the points you brought up but you need to transfer the body weight forward to achieve a longer hitting zone and power IMHO.

Phil,

This is one of the great myths. At most, a step into a shot could only add a couple of miles per hour to a shot. Getting the weight forward does allow the player to set a better fulcum to rotate around, but the best shots are usually hit when the head is completely still and the linear motion of the front shoulder forward has actually been completed; in fact, because the axis of rotation is usually closer to the neck than the outside of that shoulder, the front shoulder is usually actually rotating backward away from the net as the ball is contacted. It's really important for the head to be completely still or as close to that as possible (not always possible); this characteristic is probably most notable on Federer.

But, let's go to the videotape:

Djokovic:
center, open:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Center&stroke=ND%20FH%20Center%20OpenStance%20Side2%20250fps.mp4

center, neutral:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Center&stroke=ND%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Front%20250fps.mp4

inside in, open:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Inside_In&stroke=ND%20FH%20InsideIn%20Side1%20250fps.mp4

inside in, neutral:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Inside_In&stroke=ND%20FH%20InsideIn%20NeutralStance%20Rear1%20250fps%20.mp4

Del Potro:
center, neutral, side

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/JD_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side%20500fps.mp4

central, neutral, side, moving in (it supports Phil's argument)

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/JD_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side2%20240fps.mp4

central, neutral, side, check the stability of the head; I think this is more representative

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/JD_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20240fps.mp4

Nadal:
center, neutral, side, moving in (it supports Phil's argument)

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Center&stroke=RN%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20500fps.mp4

center, neutral, side: check the stability of the right knee approaching contact

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Center&stroke=RN%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side2%20500fps.mp4

inside in, (almost neutral,) side; check the movement of the head against the corner of the windscreen in the background

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Inside_In&stroke=RN%20FH%20InsideIn%20Side1%20500fps.mp4

Federer:
inside in, neutral (tough to find in high speed archive), check Roger's head against the umpire in the background

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Inside_In&stroke=RFFHInsideInNeutralStanceFront_500fps.mp4

center, open, side

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Center&stroke=RFFHCenterOpenStanceSide4_500fps.mp4

center, neutral, rear: appears to be moving in, but watch his head the last few clicks before contact

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Center&stroke=RFFHCenterNeutralStanceRear_250fps.mp4

don

[10splayer]

Great posts T.C. It's not only a myth, but a reason for so much loss in angular output......All youu have to do is watch a lesson from pro's forcing their lessons to "step into every ball'. (often times when it's impossible) In many cases, the result is a position that does not allow for optimal rotation/angular momentum creation. Angular momentum must never, ever be compromised because of some preconceived weight shift notion. It is the big player in the production of RHS.

In tennis vernacular, "weight shift", linear momentum has been given too much emphasis on it's DIRECT effect on end point racquet head speed.

[tennis_chiro]

Finally!

Great posts T.C. It's not only a myth, but a reason for so much loss in angular output......All youu have to do is watch a lesson from pro's forcing their lessons to "step into every ball'. (often times when it's impossible) In many cases, the result is a position that does not allow for optimal rotation/angular momentum creation. Angular momentum must never, ever be compromised because of some preconceived weight shift notion. It is the big player in the production of RHS.

In tennis vernacular, "weight shift", linear momentum has been given too much emphasis on it's DIRECT effect on end point racquet head speed.

Thanks for the response, 10sPlayer. I was hoping to open more of a discussion with my comments. I think this misunderstanding about the importance of "moving into the ball" is at the root of a lot of errors and inconsistency for many of the players I see. Also, very important in understanding why many players that seem to be using a lot of energy in their shots are still unable to generate any real power because they don't understand how to set a good rotational fulcrum and use the leverage their bodies afford them.

It's always interesting to see the proper application of these principles in the late stages of the Grand Slam events where the participants are playing at a different and higher level just how stable they are able to make their heads while generating so much power; and how well set up and balanced they are in their ball striking despite the significantly reduced amount of time they have to set up. There couldn't be a better example than tomorrow's men's final.

Hope to hear a little more feedback.

don

[stroke]

Really good stuff guys. Very thought provoking.

[gzhpcu]

Great posts T.C. It's not only a myth, but a reason for so much loss in angular output......All youu have to do is watch a lesson from pro's forcing their lessons to "step into every ball'. (often times when it's impossible) In many cases, the result is a position that does not allow for optimal rotation/angular momentum creation. Angular momentum must never, ever be compromised because of some preconceived weight shift notion. It is the big player in the production of RHS.

In tennis vernacular, "weight shift", linear momentum has been given too much emphasis on it's DIRECT effect on end point racquet head speed.

But isn't it also a question of ground force? Doesn't leaning into the stroke result in more groundforce? (Disregarding the serve where the motion is to hit upwards...). You need groundforce to generate torsion. This is not stepping into the ball, it is shifting weight forward at impact like a corkscrew tilted forwards.

[tennis_chiro]

But isn't it also a question of ground force? Doesn't leaning into the stroke result in more groundforce? (Disregarding the serve where the motion is to hit upwards...). You need groundforce to generate torsion. This is not stepping into the ball, it is shifting weight forward at impact like a corkscrew tilted forwards.

Fall of 1967, sophmore year at Harvey Mudd, my first real engineering course: Dynamics of Elastic Systems with Dr. Alford. Learning to draw the basic force diagrams. You must have had a course like that, Phil. Go back to the basic physics. That force from right leg to left leg could create a torque on the lever from center of rotation to the contact point on the racket head, but the contribution of linear speed to the speed of the ball is relatively insignificant. I tell students to "Grab the ground with your legs" and use your core and lower body to pivot into your shot like you would in delivering a big uppercut punch.

I need some help here from some biomechanists. It's a long time since I got a B in that class. It was all down hill after that. The only other B I got in engineering after that was a Directed Reading in Engineering class I took second semester of my senior year. I wrote a paper on the kinesiology and kinesthetics of the service motion. The faculty member who supervised me had a Ph.D in Kinesiology from Stanford, I think. In any case, he was Bill Arce, the Director of Athletics at the school. And I think I was the first first string All American from Harvey Mudd in any sport. The class fulfilled a science requirement and the only way they could get it on the transcript was to make in a Directed Reading Class in Engineering. Dr. Arce was not a member of the Engineering Department. If it hadn't been for the B+ he gave me, my grade point in Engineering would have been too low for me to graduate. Of course, I skipped graduation anyway to get to the NAIA national championships in Kansas City. Just like I did all my other graduations for tennis tournaments or tennis jobs.

Come on. There must be someone out there who can put what I am saying in simple terms while respecting the physics principles that have to apply.

don

[klacr]

I think what Phil might be trying to say is being misunderstood as the old school "turn, step, hit" walking through the ball. When in fact he may be bringing up the fact that ominic Thiem may have enough time to "step down" into the fall, thus getting his weight transfer better set. here's an article that describes it.
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...step_down.html

It is important to have a solid, set foundation when striking the ball like don mentions, but sometimes this is easier said then done but at pro level they do it better than most. More often you are seeing them strike the ball in the air, feet off the ground. John talks about this as well. And sometimes the players have time to actually step in or step down into the ball. I think or a player like Phil, at the club level, he may be seeing and feeling things a bit differently since he has more time than professional players.

What is tricky is that we aren't seeing the ball that Thiem is receiving. Is it short enough for him to step down and he's not, or all these balls hit with enough depth and speed that his current form is the only solution.

It's important to watch a player's strokes, but sometimes it's also important to see if those strokes correlate and have the associated technique that matches the oncoming ball. At the club level, this is a huge issue. At the pro level it may not be as bad of an epidemic but still worth a thought.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[tennishans 50]

the ATP forehand v the WTA forehand

[QUOTE=johnyandell;27123]Dominic Thiem Forehand

We looked at Dominic's wonderful backhand previously. Since then he recorded a big time win over Stan Wawrinka and a big part of that was his forehand. It's a powerful, technically superb weapon. Interestingly, it's hit with a double bend hitting arm structure, like Novak Djokovic, though with a slightly less extreme grip. What else though? Your thoughts please!


This is the ATP forehand. if you look at the other topplayers, they have that forehand: viz
1. the unit turn with the left on the racquet
2. the tip of the racquet pointing to the net
3: the racquet stays on the forehand side
4. the racquet head above the hand
5 establishing the power position with the feet grabbing the ground, bending in the kees as a launching pad ready to shoot up
6. the flip, because the racquet is above the wrist, is possible and here visible and this flip brings the head down and under the ball in an explosive movement, starting with the spring in the legs, the pulling of the bottom of the racquet and the hip pulling foreward
7. the finish with the wiper.

these keys are typical for the ATP forehand and are those differences to the WTA forehand, that gives the heavy balls with lots of topspin, acceleration and powe, which the WTA generally can't
take a look at the WTA and their long backswing, no flip, no wiper etc.

Hans from denmark[/LIST]