Full Western...anyone use it?

[stotty]

Nadal and Djokovic often get labelled as players who use a full western grip on their forehands. In reality, both players look closer towards strong semi western? I just wondered if any tour players out there do actually use a true full western grip. The closest I can find is Gulbis...who does look like he is on a full western.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHHr-q3lqtc

Anyone else out there? I couldn't see anyone in the archive...

[gzhpcu]

This is the only guy I remember using it...

http://blog.oregonlive.com/tennis/20...rasategui.html

[stotty]

This is the only guy I remember using it...

http://blog.oregonlive.com/tennis/20...rasategui.html

I remember Berasategui...

There haven't been many full-western grip successes. On balance it's probably been the least successful grip in the history of the game.

[klacr]

Berasategui was definitely a full western and one player that used the same side of the racquet. He also retired in 1998 with nagging wrist pain.

I've seen Philipp Kohlschreiber play live from an on court view and he does at times use the same side of the racquet as well but not sure if he's a complete full western, although it is pretty extreme.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[GeoffWilliams]

I use it, and use the same side of the racquet. NO wrist pains. My frames vary from 365g to 375g, strung at 58lbs.

[stotty]

Tipping point...

Of today's players Gulbis seems the closest I have come across to full western. His grip certainly seems very far round.

It's quite common to see full western grips in club players and even good juniors over here, but in pro tennis there seems to be very few who use full western. It's just too difficult to hit a penetrating forehand with it.

It's strange because Nadal and Djokovic as juniors must have gone past the tipping point yet didn't end up at full western.

[DougEng]

Kent Carlsson, Gulbis

Alberto was a great example. I think Kent was also there. Unusual western grip. Here's a look at Gulbis. I think it's slightly off a full Western. The first knuckle isn't quite in the bottom position (maybe 2-3 mm towards the edge of the bevel/panel). The second knuckle is completely under (if a full western, that position should be the first knuckle). But the rest of his fingers are well under. Novak sometimes gets well under too. In addition, when looking at full westerns, you can see unlike what many pros teach, the contact point is not far out but fairly close to the body due to the bent elbow. The eastern (on a straight arm Federer-like swing) and some semi-westerns are farther in front.

[stotty]

Alberto was a great example. I think Kent was also there. Unusual western grip. Here's a look at Gulbis. I think it's slightly off a full Western. The first knuckle isn't quite in the bottom position (maybe 2-3 mm towards the edge of the bevel/panel). The second knuckle is completely under (if a full western, that position should be the first knuckle). But the rest of his fingers are well under. Novak sometimes gets well under too. In addition, when looking at full westerns, you can see unlike what many pros teach, the contact point is not far out but fairly close to the body due to the bent elbow. The eastern (on a straight arm Federer-like swing) and some semi-westerns are farther in front.

It's tough to tell from the photo. And you don't get to see where the heel of the hand sits either. For me the heel of the hand is important as it's the only true reference point since everyone has different shaped hands and finger length. I'll stick my neck on the guillotine and say Gulbis uses a full western grip.

I think Djokovic is more a strong semi western, or it seems so looking at the close-up video that John recently uploaded.

[stroke]

It's tough to tell from the photo. And you don't get to see where the heel of the hand sits either. For me the heel of the hand is important as it's the only true reference point since everyone has different shaped hands and finger length. I'll stick my neck on the guillotine and say Gulbis uses a full western grip.

I think Djokovic is more a strong semi western, or it seems so looking at the close-up video that John recently uploaded.

I agree that the heel of the hand position is key. And I do also think Gulbis has his heel on the 5 bevel. To me, Nadal has mostly his heel behind the racquet between bevel 3 and 4, no where close to a western grip, and not that far at all from Fed's grip. To consider the importance of the heel position, assume one has the base knuckle on the 2 bevel, a so called continental. From that position, one could place the heel on bevel 1 all the way to bevel 3. Big difference in those continental grips.

[DougEng]

Grips

I agree that the heel of the hand position is key. And I do also think Gulbis has his heel on the 5 bevel. To me, Nadal has mostly his heel behind the racquet between bevel 3 and 4, no where close to a western grip, and not that far at all from Fed's grip. To consider the importance of the heel position, assume one has the base knuckle on the 2 bevel, a so called continental. From that position, one could place the heel on bevel 1 all the way to bevel 3. Big difference in those continental grips.

Having seen enough of the big guys (like John, hundreds of high speed and photos), Federer and Nadal do vary their grips. Nadal does play full western but also semi-westerns. His backhand grip also varies. Both have small grips so it's easy to slide the hand around. In fact, there's one clip showing Federer switching in mid-stroke from an eastern forehand grip to a eastern backhand grip to hit a late ball…all in one smooth motion. Also have photos of Nadal hitting a one-handed backhand with a eastern forehand grip. Djokovic may be as western as Gulbis at times. Anyhow, they are playing more over than the traditional semi-western, close to full western. But most players do vary slightly on the grip.

[stotty]

Having seen enough of the big guys (like John, hundreds of high speed and photos), Federer and Nadal do vary their grips. Nadal does play full western but also semi-westerns. His backhand grip also varies. Both have small grips so it's easy to slide the hand around. In fact, there's one clip showing Federer switching in mid-stroke from an eastern forehand grip to a eastern backhand grip to hit a late ball…all in one smooth motion. Also have photos of Nadal hitting a one-handed backhand with a eastern forehand grip. Djokovic may be as western as Gulbis at times. Anyhow, they are playing more over than the traditional semi-western, close to full western. But most players do vary slightly on the grip.

I didn't know this. I have seen all top players resort to other grips in extreme situations to be able to play balls back they couldn't retrieve otherwise. I had no idea players such as Nadal and Djokovic used a variety of grips in more basic rally situations. That's new to me.

[bottle]

Along the same lines, I want to translate stroke's contention that a continentally gripped player could have big knuckle on 2 but heel of hand on 1 or 2 or 3 .
Or on 1.5 or 2.5, I suppose.

My experiment will adjust the heel positions from big knuckle on 2.5 where John McEnroe has it according to his autobiography YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS. Or would if he were right-handed.

Sort of like full use of the shift levers on a bike.

[bottle]

Adjustment of Heel Positions from One Big Knuckle Position

To the left, if you are right-handed, the racket closes. It also becomes more of a "hammer." That means the ball will naturally want to go more to the left.

To the right, the racket opens. It also becomes less of a "hammer," i.e., gets into more of a diagonal arrangement with the arm. (A real hammer ought to have its head on straight if you ask me, i.e., the hammer head should be perpendicular to the hammer handle.) The ball will naturally want to go more to the right as heel of the hand gets more to the right.

Am talking backhand slice here. Forehands will reverse the paradigm is my guess.

[bottle]

Big Deal

Something positive just happened to my tennis game. Or am I being too much of an optimist?

[DougEng]

I didn't know this. I have seen all top players resort to other grips in extreme situations to be able to play balls back they couldn't retrieve otherwise. I had no idea players such as Nadal and Djokovic used a variety of grips in more basic rally situations. That's new to me.

Hi Stotty,

I refer to Nadal and Federer do vary their grips more often than people think but I wouldn't call them basic rally situations. Djokovic tends to be more stable.
Yes, most very their grips in extreme situations but extreme is fairly common now due to the speed of the game. Like 20 years old, you'd see the squash shot maybe 3-4 times in a match. Now, maybe like 15-30 times. 20 years ago, you might see reverses 15-20 times in a match but now maybe 100+ times or more depending on who is playing. Like the strokes, the grips do vary a bit depending on low balls, high balls, etc. Athleticism counts for so much today. Just that we don't really have a description for that. For example, many old-time Australians didn't quite play with continental grips, rather with the Australian grip (forehand) a slight modification between an eastern and continental. But by conventional wisdom, we don't define that as a grip and hardly anyone mentions it. Just like hardly anyone uses terminology of a stop volley vs a drop volley…which are different.