Racket drop woes...

[gzhpcu]

8 years ago in Your Strokes, John took a look at the lack of racket drop in my serve.

Here I am 8 years later, and haven't managed to improve it, despite my trying various tips from John, don, etc.

I took these two videos today.

From the side (first I do a practice swing with the racket drop, then I serve, and the drop is no longer there....)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LXI...ature=youtu.be

from the rear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RSG...ature=youtu.be
P.S., I tried the platform stance, but it doesn't do it for me (I am not Federer...). I like the old style leaning in to the ball...

Any further ideas as to what I could do to reprogram for a better drop after over 50 years of doing this serve?

[stotty]

8 years ago in Your Strokes, John took a look at the lack of racket drop in my serve.

Here I am 8 years later, and haven't managed to improve it, despite my trying various tips from John, don, etc.

I took these two videos today.

From the side (first I do a practice swing with the racket drop, then I serve, and the drop is no longer there....)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LXI...ature=youtu.be

from the rear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RSG...ature=youtu.be
P.S., I tried the platform stance, but it doesn't do it for me (I am not Federer...). I like the old style leaning in to the ball...

Any further ideas as to what I could do to reprogram for a better drop after over 50 years of doing this serve?

More external rotation...

[gzhpcu]

When I was a youngster, I used to play football, maybe I should use the motion to throw a high pass... will try tomorrow...

[lobndropshot]

It looks like you are rotating your upper body early. I think for a bigger racket drop to occur you would need to be sideways a little longer. Also, the contact point on the toss is a little far to the right but this may be related to the early rotation of your body.

The other issue I see is that your right elbow breaks the plane of your back. To me that is too far back.

So my two suggestions are...

1. Try and stay sideways a little longer by reaching toward the sky with your tossing hand.

2. Keep your hitting arm on the frontside of your body until your racket begins to drop.

Hope this make sense.

[gzhpcu]

Thanks lobndropshot, will try all suggestions...

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=PnLtNjQhKco

Here I have the toss more to the left...

[GeoffWilliams]

Delay the drop on purpose, until after you go down into a deeper knee bend, and only then, after you have started to go upwards, will you drop.

[tennis_chiro]

Both good suggestions

Both Geoff and Lobndropshot have good suggestions here. I particularly like what Lobndropshot is saying about not taking your elbow so far back that it breaks the plane of your shoulders. At first glance, this seems counter to getting a deeper racket drop, but when you force it that far back the body bounces back up at the wrong time and robs you of the necessary drop. This is a lot like the Gonzales abbreviated backswing that comes up the side a little bit and may explain why I have good success switching players to the Gonzales backswing when they are struggling with the racket drop. Instead of having the racket start from so far up in a classic trophy position, the racket comes from a little bit to the right, but from there a little momentum can be generated for the racket head to get it down to a deep racket drop and and the muscles of the shoulder can be loaded with sufficient external rotation to give some power to the following internal rotation to contact.

don

[gzhpcu]

Thanks, but am having a problem understanding what is meant. Is there any picture to illustrate what is meant? (I am primarily a visual guy... )

Is this what is meant?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...light=gonzalez

Can you tell me what to look for in these pictures? Thanks...

[tennis_chiro]

Perfect illustration

Thanks, but am having a problem understanding what is meant. Is there any picture to illustrate what is meant? (I am primarily a visual guy... )

Is this what is meant?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...light=gonzalez

Can you tell me what to look for in these pictures? Thanks...

Yes, Phil; you found the perfect illustration for what both Geoff and Lobndropshot were saying and I was expanding upon. The first pic in that series of Pancho shows him well into his leg bend (admittedly those bends were a lot less in those days, but he still had some load in his legs) and the racket is still not quite to the classic trophy position; in fact, it is a little off to the right and low which is where his backswing put it. And then in the second picture, you can see that his legs are now extending and his racket is just beginning to go down. I'll point out of Lobndropshot's behalf that Pancho's right elbow is still in front of the plane of his shoulders in that second picture even as his shoulders have rotated further back in his power coil. Unfortunately, they didn't have the easily available high speed photography we have now so we can't see the 10 shots we would like to see between frames 2 and 3, so you are going to have to use your imagination.

But it is a great illustration of just what we are talking about here.

don

[tennis_chiro]

Love Gonzales' lines

,,,

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...light=gonzalez

..

Great sequence to see Pancho's lineup for his serve. I always tell my students that they should fall toward their target so their nose is pointing where the ball is going. I think I can see the center mark in the first two pictures, so I think he is serving to the deuce court. I tell my students to take a stance so a line through the toes, heels and knees points to the middle of the box (no telegraphing, please!).

It's also a great shot in pics 4 and 5 of how much internal rotation Pancho had and the fact that he got the racket shaft pointed down at the ground while his hand was stlll at shoulder level. Wonderful!

don

[gzhpcu]

Thanks don, et al. Now I'll just have to figure how to reprogram myself...

[gzhpcu]

P.S. is this basically, the "keep your racket to the right side of your body" advice?

[don_budge]

Zen in the Art of Serving...Relaxation. Removing excessive hurry...anxiety.

8 years ago in Your Strokes, John took a look at the lack of racket drop in my serve.

Here I am 8 years later, and haven't managed to improve it, despite my trying various tips from John, don, etc.

P.S., I tried the platform stance, but it doesn't do it for me (I am not Federer...). I like the old style leaning in to the ball...

Any further ideas as to what I could do to reprogram for a better drop after over 50 years of doing this serve?

You make good solid contact with the ball...it makes a nice sound when you thwack it. But to be honest...this looks to be a case of you cannot teach an old dog new tricks and this is why I believe this to be the case.

Serving a tennis ball is much like a golf swing and many of the bad habits that tennis servers develop are very much akin to the bad habits that golfers develop. To serve properly...or in the Richard Gonzales mode you must swing the tennis racquet...much as if you must swing the golf club. When the player approaches the serve with the intention of hitting the ball instead of swinging the club there are going to be elements of the fluid motion that are going to be missing. Most golfers begin by trying to hit the ball...the few that become real golfers realize that they must swing the club in order to achieve any sense of power...or control for that matter.

Your example is a perfect case in point. The absence of relaxation in a free flowing motion of the swing is going to prevent you from ever achieving the classic drop action that you are seeking. Your set-up position is extremely good...you start your backswing in coordination with your hands rather nicely but once that ball leaves your hand you have only one thought in your brain...that thought is telling you to "hit" the ball. That very single thought overrides every single motive that you have of achieving that drop...because at that point you rush through the rest of your swing, or rather your hit, with the rush of the back foot to the front foot and you entirely leave out the rest of your backswing to say nothing of the action that is supposed to be going on behind your body.

I think you must reevaluate your idea of "old style" of leaning in to the ball in your rush to go forwards. First you are going to have to learn to relax and take your time in order to lean backwards...before you lean forwards.

The only glimmer of hope in your predicament...in your dilemma, is your fascination with the Richard Gonzales motion. I suggest that you are not far from the reality of the situation when you suggest that you must be reprogrammed. I recommend hypnosis with a qualified person to try and program this motion and relaxed fluid swing into a body that has been doing exactly the opposite for so many years. It is within the realm of possibilities...but for a man that operates from your mental vantage point it probably seems like an illogical approach in a world that is based on logic. The metaphysical approach may be too much of a stretch for you. Combine your visual acumen with the power of suggestion...perhaps this is the key for you.

Your anxiety to make contact with the ball indicates a lack of patience that has manifested itself in your abbreviated backswing which is further complicated by your rushing pinpoint stance. You will notice that Richard Gonzales appears to have all of the time in the world to complete his backswing...and that is because he does have all of the time in the world. There is no need to rush the backswing as it's sole purpose is to get the body in position and in alignment to go forwards into the swing of the racquet. Notice that his backswing is so languid in the still pictures that once he is position to go into "classic drop mode" he has only to lean backwards just a bit and the racquet "drops" as if by gravitational pull down behind his back. He is not arching his back...he is merely leaning backwards. Only with a total relaxation of the body...and the mind for that matter...is he able to accomplish this engineering marvel of a motion. The rollercoaster of serving.

Once he has dropped into the "classic drop mode" he gradually applies the accelerator of all of the other forces involved such as the driving legs and rotating torso in order to create the loop of the rollercoaster behind his back. That loop behind his back being similar engineering wise to the loop of the rollercoaster where the g-forces ratchet up to the point where everyones face is plastered against their skull bones. This is the case for swinging the racquet as opposed to hitting the ball. Just look at the extension that the totally relaxed, perfectly sized physique (6' 1 1/2" tall) of Richard Gonzales achieves out of the loop. He gets up on his tippy toes getting every bit of height that he can out of his being. This is the zen of serving...total relaxation in order to create a whip that is the maximum amount of stretch that can be physically (metaphysically) coaxed out of a system.

The pinpoint stance almost always seems to create these timing inadequacies. Some players seem to have it worked out. Certainly great professionals have used pinpoint stances. But then again they are professionals. I have seen many a professional too that could have benefited from using the platform stance. Your countryman Stanislas Wawrinka has some rather serious issues with the timing of his motion although tennis_chiro may have a difference of opinion with me here. But at the point where you commence to bring that back foot forwards is where you prematurely conclude your backswing. You see...you don't hit anything with your backswing. Why not take your time to complete it and get your ducks in a row...so to speak. It is largely a mental issue...which is what makes it so difficult to phantom. Even in your practice swing to try and drop your racquet down into position you hastily make the backswing.

I demonstrate to my students sometimes a backswing of about 15 to 20 seconds in length where I come to about the trophy position before I accelerate gradually and make a surprisingly solid contact with the ball...effectively starting from the trophy position. Bouncing overheads is a great place to start...a great place to start and relax in order to get that head of the racquet down where it belongs. It's largely a matter of relaxation isn't it? Am I repeating myself yet?

But the up side is that you serve well enough as it is. It is only that your artistic soul longs for something that is more aesthetically pleasing.

[don_budge]

Practicing Perfection...Serving out of the Trophy Position

Repost from "2103 Macci on the serve" thread...take your time and get your right elbow lined up before commencing the forward swing.

Now just take that serve video that Rick delivers forth on. Several commented on the length of its duration...twenty some minutes. I did it. I got through the whole thing. I was looking for Kyle in the crowd. But there it was...The Pearl. Take a look at approximately 3.30 in the video.

Every once in a while throw in a zinger...give 'em a jolt. Give 'em an Expresso said John McEnroe to Jiminy Glick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW0gQ2dP2aI

At 3.30 in the Rick Macci serve video that hockeyscout so generously has shared with us for this evolving thread...Rick says the following complete with his expressive body language and gags.

"position of the elbow. The elbow should always be shoulder, shoulder, elbow. Should always be...I could draw a straight line...I don't even need to look...there's a straight line through my shoulder, shoulder, elbow. Every time. It's almost like a see-saw...like a teeter totter."

He is demonstrating the trophy position. He assumes a position similar to Usain Bolt's archer position. I have been using this imagery in teaching the smash, the abbreviated "second serve" motion for beginners and on through with more advanced motions. I alway like using the image of creating lines with students. Vectors of energy lining up the shot.

Well...you get your nuggets here and there. There's quite a bit of food for thought here at www.tennisplayer.net...don't you think so? It's a rhetorical question.

But this business that Slick Rick emphasized in his reality tennis lesson is good. Very, very good as Jack Kramer would say. Line up that back elbow on the same plane or line as your shoulders and tossing arm and just let it go...let it fly. Just aim and let it fly! As Bob Brett had the Kid let it fly in his hour of torture.

Start your students with this lineage in overhead practice. It saves them the awkwardness of tossing the ball and trying to lift the racquet from the start position and directly into the trophy position. Then get them to deal with the chaos of throwing the ball while directly assuming the trophy position. Now throw in the backswing. Voila...very, very good results.

With my serve too. That little extra stretch to get that back elbow in line is well worth the effort as you come rolling out of the delivery and head towards the net. I was practicing serve and volley yesterday...converting my practice partner to a one-handed backhand and serve and volley player. I hadn't served in ages but I focused on getting lined up as I have been urging my students to do since I found this pearl of wisdom from Rick...Slick Rick.

I was very, very pleased with my serve...all things considered.

[don_budge]

Right Elbow in line with the Shoulders...

P.S. is this basically, the "keep your racket to the right side of your body" advice?

Mine is basically "get your right elbow in line with your shoulders and your tossing arm" advice. Just to repeat myself.