Serve: starting from trophy pose

[gzhpcu]

This player does it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY7aNGBr9EQ

when Agassi had an injured wrist, he did it: (Wimbledon 1993):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA (who could have guessed Andre was wearing a wig... )

The Jay Berger version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Unmk4r3JQ

Jay starts in the racket drop position, then moves up to the trophy pose. Mathilde Johannson and Agassi, eliminate the racket drop position from which Berger starts off (seems unnecessary to me...) and start directly with the trophy position, then go to the racket drop from there.

Actually, it seems to work pretty well. Many players have a slight pause when reaching this position, so why not?

[stotty]

Not keen...

This player does it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY7aNGBr9EQ

when Agassi had an injured wrist, he did it: (Wimbledon 1993):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA (who could have guessed Andre was wearing a wig... )

The Jay Berger version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Unmk4r3JQ

Jay starts in the racket drop position, then moves up to the trophy pose. Mathilde Johannson and Agassi, eliminate the racket drop position (seems unnecessary to me...) and start directly with the trophy position.

Actually, it seems to work pretty well. Many players have a slight pause when reaching this position, so why not?

Very few players have done this and stuck with it. I think you can still get the power and explosion but not rhythm. As you get deeper and deeper into a tennis match, serving rhythm becomes really important. Serving from the trophy position is dicey because sooner or later all rhythm will likely desert you.

The wind up is really important for rhythm.

The racket drop isn't eliminated anyway as the racket drop is the next position following the trophy position. You must mean the wind up?

[tennis_chiro]

Rhythm is essential

Very few players have done this and stuck with it. I think you can still get the power and explosion but not rhythm. As you get deeper and deeper into a tennis match, serving rhythm becomes really important. Serving from the trophy position is dicey because sooner or later all rhythm will likely desert you.

The wind up is really important for rhythm.

The racket drop isn't eliminated anyway as the racket drop is the next position following the trophy position. You must mean the wind up?

I agree with Stotty. I've said many times before in this Forum that I think rhythm is essential; furthermore, that I think the lynchpin that holds the serve together is the coordination of the rock with the toss. When you just place the racket up there in the trophy position before you start the motion it is tough to replicate any rhythm.

But I find it is helpful with many students to have them work from the trophy position. What I have them do is a kind of a double clutch where they make the backswing to get the racket up to the trophy position while they make the tossing motion but hold on to the ball. Then they retrace and rock back to the beginning of the motion while leaving the racket in the trophy position; the racket stays in that trophy position until after the ball has left the tossing hand and the weight has moved forward; then as the body goes up to the ball, the racket is allowed to drop to the "pro drop" position with the appropriate momentum it gets by dropping from the trophy position as opposed to the "backscratch" where some people mistakenly get stuck. This is a little complicated, but it does have a real rhythm to it; I call it "The Hiccup". I thought I had it up on youtube somewhere, but it seems I do not.

Nevertheless, Phil, you might benefit from about the last 5 minutes of this video where I go through my "Burp" and "Bubble". These are drills to emphasize the internal rotation part of the service motion from the "pro drop position". And they are always done with the weight going forward as the tossing arm goes up.

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Pro-Coach-Don-Brosseau-Serve/i-NkQg8HW/A

At about 6:30 into the following video, you can see me working with a more advanced student and trying to get the concept of internal rotation on the line to the target across to him. You can see the difference in what his racket is doing and what mine is doing.

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Don-Brosseau-Serve/i-26F7jxd/A

It is getting this concept of getting on the line and getting the benefit of your internal rotation that will make a big difference in your serve even if your arm is not quite as flexible as a 14 year old's.

Try it out, Phil. I'll have to get a video of my "Hiccup" motion posted so you and Stotty can see what I'm talking about.

don

[gzhpcu]

The racket drop isn't eliminated anyway as the racket drop is the next position following the trophy position. You must mean the wind up?

No, of course, did not mean the drop. Meant the wind up...

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Stotty and Don,
Well what it boils down to is my endless quest for a better racket drop.
As a reminder, here is my serve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMc1nDgvnM

I have tried John's tips, I go in front of the mirror and get a much better drop there than when i actually serve. Once I serve, my automatic pilot takes over, and bingo: no change.

Am going to try the Agassi type serve shown above and see if it helps my racket drop. Then, if it does, will try going back to the full serve again. Problem is, there is no pro over here in Lugano aware of the problem, they all take the easy way out and tell me my serve "is just fine" (btw: there racket drop is not so hot either... )

[tennis_chiro]

Agassi held his rhythm and rock

Thanks Stotty and Don,
Well what it boils down to is my endless quest for a better racket drop.
As a reminder, here is my serve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMc1nDgvnM

I have tried John's tips, I go in front of the mirror and get a much better drop there than when i actually serve. Once I serve, my automatic pilot takes over, and bingo: no change.

Am going to try the Agassi type serve shown above and see if it helps my racket drop. Then, if it does, will try going back to the full serve again. Problem is, there is no pro over here in Lugano aware of the problem, they all take the easy way out and tell me my serve "is just fine" (btw: there racket drop is not so hot either... )

Take a good look at your Agassi video, Phil. You'll see, when you compare to other clips of his serve that he maintained his rhythm and the synchronization of his rock and his toss.

don

[gzhpcu]

Take a good look at your Agassi video, Phil. You'll see, when you compare to other clips of his serve that he maintained his rhythm and the synchronization of his rock and his toss.

don

That Don, is why I want to try it out, to see if my racket drop is better...

[bottle]

My tip as a fellow player with insufficient drop is to fiddle with trophy position itself. Maybe it shouldn't be perfectly upright. Maybe it ought to be on its side a little. At this point I go with Rick Macci's little speech about getting one's house in order. That, it seems to me, is what the trophy idea is about: To provide a gathering place in the serve for a pause or almost pause (depending on one's beliefs about desirability of continuity of motion). But the configuration of trophy at the "gathering" moment: Cannot for the life of me see why it should be the same for everybody. Having a collection point is the big idea. Trophy position is a little idea. Mess with whole cycle to find the best collection point. Might be a little sooner. Or later. But I only care about rotorded servers. The unrotorded servers are spoiled brats deserving of no respect or consideration, and in any case they are going to get plenty of fawning attention from gyros different from me.

This fiddling with time for trophy or quasi-trophy and with slightly different configuration simply produced an unexpected comment one time from a serve returner whom I do/did respect very much. "Where did that come from?" he asked after muffing my serve. I was of course hooked and started asking myself "What did I do different?" Isn't that what one is supposed to do?

[stotty]

I agree with Stotty. I've said many times before in this Forum that I think rhythm is essential; furthermore, that I think the lynchpin that holds the serve together is the coordination of the rock with the toss. When you just place the racket up there in the trophy position before you start the motion it is tough to replicate any rhythm.

But I find it is helpful with many students to have them work from the trophy position. What I have them do is a kind of a double clutch where they make the backswing to get the racket up to the trophy position while they make the tossing motion but hold on to the ball. Then they retrace and rock back to the beginning of the motion while leaving the racket in the trophy position; the racket stays in that trophy position until after the ball has left the tossing hand and the weight has moved forward; then as the body goes up to the ball, the racket is allowed to drop to the "pro drop" position with the appropriate momentum it gets by dropping from the trophy position as opposed to the "backscratch" where some people mistakenly get stuck. This is a little complicated, but it does have a real rhythm to it; I call it "The Hiccup". I thought I had it up on youtube somewhere, but it seems I do not.

Nevertheless, Phil, you might benefit from about the last 5 minutes of this video where I go through my "Burp" and "Bubble". These are drills to emphasize the internal rotation part of the service motion from the "pro drop position". And they are always done with the weight going forward as the tossing arm goes up.

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Pro-Coach-Don-Brosseau-Serve/i-NkQg8HW/A

At about 6:30 into the following video, you can see me working with a more advanced student and trying to get the concept of internal rotation on the line to the target across to him. You can see the difference in what his racket is doing and what mine is doing.

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Don-Brosseau-Serve/i-26F7jxd/A

It is getting this concept of getting on the line and getting the benefit of your internal rotation that will make a big difference in your serve even if your arm is not quite as flexible as a 14 year old's.

Try it out, Phil. I'll have to get a video of my "Hiccup" motion posted so you and Stotty can see what I'm talking about.

don

Interesting clips. I watched both from start to finish. The boy has a nice motion. I like it a lot. He asks the very "modern" question: "Where should I serve from to get more forehands". Smart kid.

When kids get to his level, I have them to vary the position they stand from to serve. I like them to give opponents a different look. It's a healthy habit and helps them recognise that subtle differences can at times make all the difference. I also get them to return serve from different positions too. Nothing too obvious (no gamesmanship), more subliminal, just a few inches here and there to alter the servers perspective. What we don't want is opposition getting a groove with either their serves or returns. Give 'em a different look.

You give far more verbal instruction than I would, which I find interesting. You walk the kids through the whole process...lots of explaining. I like the way you get in to conversation with your students. I tend to visual cues more than verbal cues. Plus I work in a cold climate so standing around isn't always a good idea. It's unwitting how climate affects so many things...not just the crops.

I tend use motor learning a lot and guide the student through swing paths. I also demonstrate continually. My verbal cues are there but more minimal.

I found the internal rotation teaching you gave most useful and may give that a go. I see you still use the trusty figure eights...with weighted racket.

Great post...I will wait for the "hiccup" with anticipation. And may post again once I watch your clips again.

[stotty]

My tip as a fellow player with insufficient drop is to fiddle with trophy position itself. Maybe it shouldn't be perfectly upright. Maybe it ought to be on its side a little. At this point I go with Rick Macci's little speech about getting one's house in order. That, it seems to me, is what the trophy idea is about: To provide a gathering place in the serve for a pause or almost pause (depending on one's beliefs about desirability of continuity of motion). But the configuration of trophy at the "gathering" moment: Cannot for the life of me see why it should be the same for everybody. Having a collection point is the big idea. Trophy position is a little idea. Mess with whole cycle to find the best collection point. Might be a little sooner. Or later. But I only care about rotorded servers. The unrotorded servers are spoiled brats deserving of no respect or consideration, and in any case they are going to get plenty of fawning attention from gyros different from me.

This fiddling with time for trophy or quasi-trophy and with slightly different configuration simply produced an unexpected comment one time from a serve returner whom I do/did respect very much. "Where did that come from?" he asked after muffing my serve. I was of course hooked and started asking myself "What did I do different?" Isn't that what one is supposed to do?

Lovely post, bottle...a real gem. Just love the concept of "gathering" and "collection point".

[gzhpcu]

This fiddling with time for trophy or quasi-trophy and with slightly different configuration simply produced an unexpected comment one time from a serve returner whom I do/did respect very much. "Where did that come from?" he asked after muffing my serve. I was of course hooked and started asking myself "What did I do different?" Isn't that what one is supposed to do?

The problem I have bottle, is that my service movement is in write-once, read only muscle memory. While I have modified my other strokes, my serve goes into autopilot mode once I start the motion. In front of the mirror, all is well. Going through the motion (without actually serving) ditto. Then I serve and the moment I initiate the movement my autopilot takes over!

This is why, I will attempt to imitate Agassi's '93 Wimbledon serve and see if that helps...

What does not help the situation is that no coach ever pointed this out. It is only thanks to video analysis that I saw it. It was also pointed out by John in the Your Strokes section in respect to my serve.

[stotty]

Mind over matter

The problem I have bottle, is that my service movement is in write-once, read only muscle memory. While I have modified my other strokes, my serve goes into autopilot mode once I start the motion. In front of the mirror, all is well. Going through the motion (without actually serving) ditto. Then I serve and the moment I initiate the movement my autopilot takes over!

This is why, I will attempt to imitate Agassi's '93 Wimbledon serve and see if that helps...

What does not help the situation is that no coach ever pointed this out. It is only thanks to video analysis that I saw it. It was also pointed out by John in the Your Strokes section in respect to my serve.

This is exactly what sometimes happens to the girl in tennis_chiro's video. She shadow strokes nicely but "autopilot", as you put it, takes over when it comes to hitting the ball. That's normal. Coaches fight this all the time.

The good thing about shadow stroking is that it shows your body is flexible enough to achieve a good racket drop. So now all you have to do is do it when you actually serve...easy, right?. Well, nothing worthwhile is easy in tennis unless you're lucky...so no it won't be easy.

The trick here is one of mind over matter. You must concentrate primarily on your swing and racket drop and worry about hitting the ball secondary. You will probably hit the air many times trying to master the racket drop. You see, having to go the extra distance to achieve the racket drop means you will have to resynch the timing of everything...but your autopilot will prevent this every time if your "primary" focus is to hit the ball and get it in.

You are on the right path by starting from the trophy position. Initially this will make everything easier. Once you master it, you can try incorporate it with a full wind up.

I have managed to get students to develop better racket drops like this. The secret is mind over matter and plenty of patience.

Sometimes I have students serve against the fence so the feeling of having to get the ball in the service box is removed. Feeling you have to get the ball in inhibits a coaching exercise like this.

[tennis_chiro]

Sometimes I have students serve against the fence so the feeling of having to get the ball in the service box is removed. Feeling you have to get the ball in inhibits a coaching exercise like this.

Great point about serving against the fence!

don

[gzhpcu]

Good points Stotty. Will try....

[gzhpcu]

What I also thought to give a try is the "praying mantis" takeback used by Roddick... (and pray it works...)