Interactive Forum March 2014: Djokovic Forehand Ball Contact

[johnyandell]

Here is one of the most amazing clips I have ever filmed, which I think it is fair to say, is claiming quite a bit. It's a Novak Djokovic forehand, filmed tightly on the contact at 4700 frames per second.

Where to start in the analysis? What are the spin rates of the incoming and the outgoing ball? Look closely at the strings at contact. That is a dense string pattern with 18 mains but you can still see the "snap" back effect from the poly strings.

And then what about the wrist angle? Or the racket head angle? Truly a new look inside the invisible world during pro match play! Do you love it the way I do?

[johnyandell]

Quicktime version

[stroke]

That is some clip. It appears the incoming ball has pretty much pure topspin and is coming in at more rpm's than Novak produced in return. Is that a service return? Also, one can really see how his wrist stays laid back through the shot.

[hockeyscout]

John?

What kind of camera are you using (equipment). I see some value in replicating that on my end, for teaching purposes with my kid. Right now we use ubersense, however, I like what I see right there. It'd be an interesting teaching tool. How do you do that? This is much cooler.

[hockeyscout]

Wave of the future

Man, I think my kid might see to many errors at that speed, and blow her mind. I'd be interested in how you combat paralyis by analysis with software slow enough to see a butterfly wings move! I'll ask my loved one on that, as mentioned runners go to Israel to get this motion looked at in some lab! Pretty intensive!

[stotty]

Like stroke, the thing that got me is the way the wrist is laid back on contact. I thought by that point the wrist would be straight.

It's a wonderfully shot clip, really clear and shot at the perfect fps. You really are getting very good at this stuff, John. You ought to move on to shooting movies for wildlife programme.

[hockeyscout]

Interesting

That's funny, he looks like he's taking a wrist shot in hockey. He's got what looks like a Gordie Howe wrist. It appears at contact he "squeezes the ball" with two top fingers. Look at the muscle groups which fired, and didn't fire. Also, is he coming in a little late on the ball? This is where coaching always gets so dicey! Obviously, anti-technique - style = both methods of being successful with “incorrect” techniques. The problem I see in tennis is people are trying to beat everything into a kid to make him what I call a text-book player. However, what you get is a clone. Nuetral. Perfect. Boring. Lacking style. Everyone needs their own style. You've got to be a creative human to win a any sport. Ali boxed with his hands down. Roy Jones Junior learned his craft from patching cock fighting. Tyson was Einstein in the ring. Foreman invented new angles. I think these kinds of camera angles are great for players because nothing now can slip the cameras eye. I can only see more creative solutions coming out of this! Now, I need to buy one of these camera's John has an play, play, play, play and watch, watch and watch. If the tennis federations could put these videos into cartoon format kids would watch them all day and get better and better!

[johnyandell]

That's a Phantom Miro 210 about $24K with a $10K lens. And Stotty I have no desire whatsoever to wait in the woods or any other god forsaken place for wild animals. On the tour, the animals perform on a schedule.

[hockeyscout]

Little out of my price range!

[klacr]

Great Clip. It's hypnotic in a way. I could watch it all day.

That detail is awesome. Can't get that anywhere else!

Great look at the double bend from the elbow up to the arm. That wrist really stays laid back at contact and continues throughout.

What I find interesting is that Djokovic hits this ball in this video lower in his string bed. Certainly not intentional as he normally hits it between 4th-6th cross from the top, but wondering what overall effect it had on the ball and potential for spin. Wonder what the result was of that stroke.

Also, what does it say for Djokovic's racquet head speed when at 4700 fpm it still looks like its going fast. Incredible stuff.


Stotty, As for John's possible career in wildlife, I'd tell him not to quit his day job. He may be onto something with this video analysis and website thing. .
Having worked in a zoo, I can tell you from uncomfortable work experience, watching great tennis players compete is way better than having to spend an entire work shift by monitoring two water buffaloes mate.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[jeffreycounts]

Great look at the double bend from the elbow up to the arm. That wrist really stays laid back at contact and continues throughout.

Totally agree about how this is a great look at the double bend. What strikes me is how much the entire double bend and racket are rotating into the ball. You don't see the traditional notion of linear movement forward, but rather an inside out rotation into the ball.

Along the same lines this clip really shows how the hand comes through first, followed by the racket handle, followed then by the racket. It's more like a pulling of the handle/rotation of the double bend into the ball rather than forward linear movement of the racket.

[klacr]

Totally agree about how this is a great look at the double bend. What strikes me is how much the entire double bend and racket are rotating into the ball. You don't see the traditional notion of linear movement forward, but rather an inside out rotation into the ball.

Along the same lines this clip really shows how the hand comes through first, followed by the racket handle, followed then by the racket. It's more like a pulling of the handle/rotation of the double bend into the ball rather than forward linear movement of the racket.

I can't get enough of this very cool video. I definitely though Djokovic hitting arm structure would shift or cahnge after contact. Perhaps arm straightening or extending out as was mentioned. But no, it stays on the same path, with the same double bend structure throughout. Also looks as though that racquet head accelerates just a tad bit more after contact towards the very end of the clip.

Hoping we get more of these views with such great detail in the future. Indian Wells is this week so I'm sure John will get some great footage.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[jeffreycounts]

Wrist angle

One more important point. His wrist is laid back a full 90 degrees to his forearm at the start of the clip. On contact its around 45 degrees. So while the bend in the elbow remains the same, the wrist relaxes outward. Through contact, the wrist stays at this 45 degree angle.

So I think the amount of rotation coming into contact is very interesting. The wrist rotates the racket outward. The torso is still rotating into contact and consequently the entire double bend is rotating into contact.

[gsheiner]

He appears to be hitting a crosscourt or an inside in forehand. Could it be that there is less extension on these shots compared to an inside out or down the line forehand?

There is advantage to coming around the outside of the ball on the crosscourt and inside in because the spin will cause the ball to tail away from the court.

This same spin would not help the inside out or down the line shot because the spin would cause the ball to hook back in towards the center of the court.

Thus, I postulate that we would see some degree of extension through the ball on the inside out and down the line.

It would be great to see all these shots compared at this video speed -astounding visual quality.

GS

[johnyandell]

Not sure about the shot direction. But in general this idea of wrist flexion is over emphasized. It does happen but "neutral" wrist position is unusual. The vast majority of the shots I've looked out have laid back angles before during and after contact. The so called whip analogy I feel is invalid.

Inside out forehands typically have the most severe laid back angles before during and after contact.