Interactive Forum March 2014: Djokovic Forehand Ball Contact

[bottle]

That is some clip. It appears the incoming ball has pretty much pure topspin and is coming in at more rpm's than Novak produced in return. Is that a service return? Also, one can really see how his wrist stays laid back through the shot.

Ball loses speed but picks up spin from the bounce and this happens coming and going assuming both shots were hit with topspin?

[jryle1]

For me it really shows how truly important contact is on all the strokes. Beautiful contact. Simple, effortless, yet deadly. Beautiful clip. I love how you can see the ball compressing into the strings. It really gives off the feeling of explosiveness as well, the way it compresses in and then shoots out. Effortless power and explosiveness. It's truly beautiful.

[bottle]

I'll bet that a lot of people have been confused about how the "lubricity" of the new strings works. Do the strings pull down and then up (added topspin)? Up and then down (added underspin)? Or out and then in as if the whole stringbed is breathing as in the present video being discussed here, which has got to add something. Shock absorption? Dwell time and therefore control? Power?

[jdcremin]

I see the wrist flexing into contact and I don't see any evidence that points to relaxation as the cause.

Look what he does with this forehand at :30 - that is active wrist flexion and active pronation of the arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLRLP8g7-zY

[johnyandell]

Well not in our high speed shot. As I said in the other thread there are different movements at different times for different shots. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

[jdcremin]

Well not in our high speed shot. As I said in the other thread there are different movements at different times for different shots. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

I see flexion in the high speed shot - it's not glaring but then wrist flexion in the forehand is very subtle. Look at the wristband and you might see it. A split second before contact, the wrist begins flexion and the arm pronates.

Place your hand as if holding the racket for a forehand - laid back wrist. Now increase you grip pressure as if you were about to contact the ball - see the flexion? The only way to counter that is forcefully extend the wrist - which is not happening.

[johnyandell]

Not sure I see that. If so it is microscopic.

My larger point is that the flexion varies widely, that the wrist is usually laid back before during and after contact. The driving forces do not include conscious flexion.

These forces are coming from the hips, shoulders and the rotation of the upper arm in the modern finishes. The wrist may release as a result of other forces or not and often is actually restrained to create racket head alignment.

Take a look at Brian Gordon's brilliant study of the forehand in the Biomechanics section.

[jdcremin]

I'll quit harping on this at some point. The wrist extension on the forward swing puts tension on the forearm wrist flexors. This tension plus increased grip pressure (prior to contact) both serve to move the wrist in the flexing direction.

Look at this Nadal forehand - this is his basic buggy-whip forehand. Look at the wrist/forearm angle - it goes from 90 degrees at the beginning of the forward swing to maybe 15 degrees at contact. Again, the player would have to forcefully extend the wrist to counter the natural forces that are trying to flex the wrist.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Center&stroke=RN%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Front1%20500fps.mp4

[jdcremin]

Not sure I see that. If so it is microscopic.

My larger point is that the flexion varies widely, that the wrist is usually laid back before during and after contact. The driving forces do not include conscious flexion.

These forces are coming from the hips, shoulders and the rotation of the upper arm in the modern finishes. The wrist may release as a result of other forces or not and often is actually restrained to create racket head alignment.

Take a look at Brian Gordon's brilliant study of the forehand in the Biomechanics section.

My concern is that if you try to nkeep your wrist laid back going into contact - you'll be struggling to hit a decent forehand.

[johnyandell]

Not a problem and worth the discussion. This issue has been around for the 15 years or so I have been doing high speed filming--and before that as well. And will be after I am done filming in another 50 years...

Personally I don't share your concern. My view is that below very very high levels establishing and keeping a laid back wrist is one of the biggest problems and one of the keys to consistency, power and spin.

I don't think Nadal is really a model for anyone other than himself, possibly, at least in terms of his foreward swing patterns. But if you look at a few dozen of his forehands you'll see that he is often laid back as well even with his grip which is more likely to produce netural wrist positions at contact, or positions closer to neutral.

[stroke]

I'll quit harping on this at some point. The wrist extension on the forward swing puts tension on the forearm wrist flexors. This tension plus increased grip pressure (prior to contact) both serve to move the wrist in the flexing direction.

Look at this Nadal forehand - this is his basic buggy-whip forehand. Look at the wrist/forearm angle - it goes from 90 degrees at the beginning of the forward swing to maybe 15 degrees at contact. Again, the player would have to forcefully extend the wrist to counter the natural forces that are trying to flex the wrist.


http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20500fps.mp4

I think if you compare the wrist position on contact between 2 Nadal forehands, one of them hit inside out, cross court from his deuce court to his opponent's deuce court, and one Nadal forehand, hit cross court from his ad court to his opponent's ad court(his signature shot to the Fed backhand), you will see a noticeable difference in the wrist position(extension and flexion) at contact. As John pointed out, Brian's articles on the ATP forehand is the best source for information on this subject.