2103 Macci on the serve

[hockeyscout]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI

What are you're thoughts?

[hockeyscout]

forehand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P52Ggata7qY

[hockeyscout]

backhand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZXrqH2oUPw

[stroke]

That was a lot of information Rick shared there. The portion on the forehand and backhand was what he has shared with us on tennisplayer.net, ground breaking stuff. The portion of instruction on the serve was simply world class instruction. Thanks for posting links to this. Rick and Brian really have it going on. I really like what Rick said about Nadal's and Federer's forehand being so similar, and people don't realize it. I think this is so true.

[don_budge]

What I like about Rick Macci...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI

What are you're thoughts?

Here's a couple of thoughts...hockeyscout. It's kind of you to ask.

He's really an engaging personality. He puts on a good show. He's a showman...not a shaman. But that's Rick. He's putting us on at the same time he's delivering the Gospel. Fire and Brimstone. He missed his calling. Or did he? He's got his share of snake oil salesmanship in him.

How funny is this? The most important aspect of the serve...the driving of the legs. I am inclined to agree with him even though I have been expressing it a bit differently.

When I am teaching the serve I start with the setup and then the backswing. But between the backswing and the foreswing there is this nebulous little territory that Rick is referring to and that is precisely where the racquet begins it's free-fall descent behind the servers back.

During the course of my serve lesson we invariably come to this point in my discussion and I end up explaining to my students that I used to be a great server but I don't play much competitive tennis any longer so that when I do I have to key in on something to make it work half way decently.

There are two keys to the thing working for me and this point that Rick is referring to is one of them. I explain to my students that they must have the patience to feel that racquet drop behind them because that is the point where the kinetic chain reverses itself and goes in the other direction. Once i feel that sensation of the racquet falling that is my cue to start driving with the legs, turning the shoulders and then the throwing motion of the arm.

I explain to the student that I know that I have a great backswing and I know that I have a great serve...but it is imperative that there is a point between going from backswing to foreswing that is the deal breaker. I have to be patient to get to that point before stepping on the gas. If you step on the accelerator too soon it has the effect of trying to hit the ball instead of swinging the racquet...much as beginner golfers have the same difficulty in coming to the realization that it is a matter of swinging the golf club and not just hitting at the ball. A golfer too must exhibit a lot of patience before stepping on the gas and applying the accelerator.

In the course of discussing tennis the word "power" is often bandied about and I like to emphasis this word over and over. I ask the question..."What is Power?" It's a rhetorical question for me and I answer that "Control is Power". First you get technical control over the ball in order to get tactical control over your opponent. But you must maintain emotional control over yourself to achieve that maximum level of power. Power is not solely about speed or force. You want to get power over someone special...get control. By any means necessary.

Waiting for this moment to apply the accelerator is a matter of control when things get dicey or situations get tense. To be able to relax and rely upon this sense of timing is one of the keys to maintaining a perfect service motion during the course of a tennis match much as it is the key to maintaining a perfect golf swing during the course of a round...or a tournament.

The other key to serving? I mentioned that there were two...is the placement of the toss. So the story goes...to the student that if I aim correctly and maintain the integrity of my arm and racquet shape during the course of my backswing and if I can wait to feel the sensation of the racquet falling and toss the ball to that one point in time and space where it will all be perfect...the perfect delivery of the racquet head will happen more or less naturally.

Does that make any sense? Rick made a lot of sense to me...the performance was entertaining too. He's a funny guy...who knows his stuff.

[klacr]

I was at this presentation in Orlando at the USPTA World Conference. I also happen to work a few minutes down the road from him. He puts on a great show and the information he provided was spot on. That's my opinion. Although he seems to know a lot, I respect him more for traveling to these educational seminars and sharing all his info with those that are hungry to learn.

A huge part of the serve to me is the kinesthetic feel of the racquet head. Knowing where it is at all times. Having a relaxed hitting arm and free mind is crucial to hitting a great serve as you'll be aware of not only the racquet drop but also of the leg driving up to the ball and the timing of the whole motion. The moment you start forcing it is the moment you start losing it. don_budge makes a great point about this.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[GeoffWilliams]

Samp[ras lagged his racquet drop. It only reached vertical before his legs start to drive up.

Any good shot is lagged and dragged.

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

I saw a half hour show on the Tennis Channel, with Macci teaching the forehand. He had assumed Federer had almost the perfect forehand, & he tries to teach that swing. I don't agree with Macci's assessment of Fed's forehand, but more troubling is the poor teaching I saw by Macci during the show. I notice many important details about the swing that Macci does not notice.

[stotty]

The head is the slave of the body

Now, if you watch Rinaldo in this video against a good sprinter, his form is actually pretty bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZqEj-Qyg6U

However, he's learned to compensate with vision.

http://www.bettermovement.org/2013/the-incredible-visual-skills-of-christiano-ronaldo/

Federer's secret really is he's given himself extra time by being able to read what the other player is doing before they even hit the ball. If you turned the lights out on Federer, like they did on Rinaldo I am sure you'd see the same things!

Entirely normal sprinting for a footballer, using the arms to counterbalance, and the head up perusing spaces on the pitch. Wouldn't be too different for a tennis player...other than a tennis player doesn't sprint, of course.

In sprinting the "head is the slave of the body". Tilt your head down as you run and the body MUST follow. It's part of the recipe for top speed. Unfortunately tennis players and footballers have to look up...there's a ball to watch.

I can't imagine Federer is a fast sprinter...maybe Nadal. Borg was known to be a quick sprinter. In tennis, crucially, the first yard is in your head.

[10splayer]

I saw a half hour show on the Tennis Channel, with Macci teaching the forehand. He had assumed Federer had almost the perfect forehand, & he tries to teach that swing. I don't agree with Macci's assessment of Fed's forehand, but more troubling is the poor teaching I saw by Macci during the show. I notice many important details about the swing that Macci does not notice.

Yes, would you please specify, instead of your broad, vague insults. Anyone can hurl them....lets hear some detail.

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

Macci teaches the type of topspin forehand that is used by most pro players today. (That is why the pros make so many forehand mistakes.)

First, let's look at a baseball swing, or a golf swing. At contact point, can you see the solidity of the hitting elbow, a LITTLE BIT AWAY from the "gut" of the body? (I will define the gut as the area between the belly button & hip. the elbow should feel, during the swing, that it can always quickly return to that solid feeling, a solid connection with the gut.) You can see that, during practice swings, a good baseball hitter has his/her elbow solidly close to that gut location at contact with the ball, & actually lets the elbow & bat move in a way in which the elbow is always in a groove with that gut.

Same with golf. Same with cricket. Same with all sports that use a club or ball. Actually, I enjoyed a Tennis Channel show, Destination Tennis, in Rome. The host, Mayleen Ramey, was being taught to use a gladiator's sword. If you notice, the movements of effectively using a gladiator's sword in combat are amazingly similar to effective tennis forehands & backhands, & effective golf & baseball swings.

I don't agree with everything that the famous coach Oscar Wegner teaches, but I like the way Wegner teaches to keep the racket out front in preparing for the ball, in tracking the ball (similar to the way Cibulkova does, for instance....although Dominika has other flaws). This is what I call a forward-set swing, a forward-emphasis swing. Recently, Steve Johnson blasted Tommy Haas off the court with Johnson's forward-set forehand.

But the first thing Macci teaches on the forehand is to destroy that groove between elbow & gut. He teaches as David Nainkin does -- to force shoulders & hips sideways, to get the racket too far back (Macci thinks this is "tracking" the ball). Players taught Macci's way learn to let the ball come to them. Supposedly, players prepare with the racket tip up, & then only have to let the racket drop to start their loop. In reality, players' rackets get stuck in the racket-tip-up preparation, & then players have a hard time getting the racket moving again. It is a backwards-set, backwards-emphasis type of forehand.

Because pro players who use the Macci forehand have trouble re-starting the movement of the racket, I call that type of forehand a multiple piece swing, a multiple segment swing. There is a sad stop in the swing, similar to a stop of kink in the service motion. Macci's forehand is not a flowing, natural, continuous, 1-piece motion. Teaching Macci's forehand is akin to teaching a kink in the serve.

The Macci, Nainkin style forehand is the reason that today's ATP & WTA players make so many forehand errors, the reason why they have trouble handing short balls well. Federer's forehand does not have as pronounced a Macci motion as most circuit players today. Yet sometimes Fed makes the ugliest forehand errors, due to the slight incorporation of the Macci Nainkin ideas into his forehand. I've seen Roger almost whiff easy balls that are sitting up & only a little bit short, because Roger in his head prepares the racket in his forehand the way Macci suggests.

[captnemo]

First cross sport analogies are ridiculous and have no validty. You can't equate a baseball and a tennis ball and a bat and a racket.

Second if you take the time to actually look at Rick Macci's articles on this site you would see that you have not understood what he is saying and are making inaccurate statements that make you look at the least uniformed, and at worst, malicious.

Don't we have any moderation on this board? It's starting to sound as bad as Tennis Warehouse message board.

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

There is an epidemic of poor forehand topspins today in pro tennis, & it's because players have been taught Macci's way of hitting that stroke. I understand what Macci says. Sorry that I don't unquestioningly adopt everything he says, just because he is a famous "expert."

The world's top educator, Siegfried Engelmann, said that to teach a new physical skill, the teacher often should take a skill that the student already knows, & then apply it to the new physical skill. For instance, the way that tennis strings impart underspin on a volley is often similar to pinching a chip in the game Tiddly Winks. You pinch the edge of the chip, & make it squirt up in the air with backspin. If a student trying to learn volleys is having a hard time learning the details of what to do with the strings of the racket at volley contact point, the teacher first can make sure the student plays Tiddly Winks in an adequate manner. The student then can apply the Tiddly Winks principles to tennis volleys.

I believe everything a tennis player does in his or her life history can have an impact on how well the player learns tennis. Raking leaves & sweeping the steps even have similarities to some tennis strokes. Certainly other sports can have a huge impact on learning tennis.

In an earlier post, a while ago, I described the "slow & bouncy" kickball drill as a way to teach compact, naturally flowing, forward-set topspin forehands in tennis. Go back & read that post. Macci's students will perform poorly on this drill, which indicates that they need to alter their strokes, in order to be really good.

(You asked me to be specific about the flaws in Macci's forehand instruction, & in the posts above, I have tried to be specific. Macci doesn't understand the importance of the elbow solidly in a groove, the importance of a continuously flowing swing, the importance of making the racket pass through key points in the swing so that the player can get maximum leverage on the shot.)

[klacr]

Steve Johnson forehand

worldsbesttenniscoach,

I appreciate your opinions and interested in hearing more but I know many are confounded by your explanations. Unfortunately, many of us on here are visual learners.

I'm going to try and help all of us and hopefully bridge the gap.
You mentioned Steve Johnson's forehand. I was in Delray Beach to watch him play in the atp event. I think I understand what you are talking about but I have added some clips of him hitting forehands. Please break down his shot and educate us so we know at least where you are coming from. Here you go..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1hzk5VZNrs Forehands start at 25 second mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abiGmH-OVmM Forehand starts at 19 second mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmN5GfcWzPo
Forehand starts at 56 second mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8MC6oBjxWQ

Hope these videos can help all of us understand where you are coming from. We're all on here to learn. Thanks

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

Lost in the Flood...Bruce Springsteen

Macci teaches the type of topspin forehand that is used by most pro players today. (That is why the pros make so many forehand mistakes.)

First, let's look at a baseball swing, or a golf swing. At contact point, can you see the solidity of the hitting elbow, a LITTLE BIT AWAY from the "gut" of the body? (I will define the gut as the area between the belly button & hip. the elbow should feel, during the swing, that it can always quickly return to that solid feeling, a solid connection with the gut.) You can see that, during practice swings, a good baseball hitter has his/her elbow solidly close to that gut location at contact with the ball, & actually lets the elbow & bat move in a way in which the elbow is always in a groove with that gut.

Same with golf. Same with cricket. Same with all sports that use a club or ball. Actually, I enjoyed a Tennis Channel show, Destination Tennis, in Rome. The host, Mayleen Ramey, was being taught to use a gladiator's sword. If you notice, the movements of effectively using a gladiator's sword in combat are amazingly similar to effective tennis forehands & backhands, & effective golf & baseball swings.

I don't agree with everything that the famous coach Oscar Wegner teaches, but I like the way Wegner teaches to keep the racket out front in preparing for the ball, in tracking the ball (similar to the way Cibulkova does, for instance....although Dominika has other flaws). This is what I call a forward-set swing, a forward-emphasis swing. Recently, Steve Johnson blasted Tommy Haas off the court with Johnson's forward-set forehand.

But the first thing Macci teaches on the forehand is to destroy that groove between elbow & gut. He teaches as David Nainkin does -- to force shoulders & hips sideways, to get the racket too far back (Macci thinks this is "tracking" the ball). Players taught Macci's way learn to let the ball come to them. Supposedly, players prepare with the racket tip up, & then only have to let the racket drop to start their loop. In reality, players' rackets get stuck in the racket-tip-up preparation, & then players have a hard time getting the racket moving again. It is a backwards-set, backwards-emphasis type of forehand.

Because pro players who use the Macci forehand have trouble re-starting the movement of the racket, I call that type of forehand a multiple piece swing, a multiple segment swing. There is a sad stop in the swing, similar to a stop of kink in the service motion. Macci's forehand is not a flowing, natural, continuous, 1-piece motion. Teaching Macci's forehand is akin to teaching a kink in the serve.

The Macci, Nainkin style forehand is the reason that today's ATP & WTA players make so many forehand errors, the reason why they have trouble handing short balls well. Federer's forehand does not have as pronounced a Macci motion as most circuit players today. Yet sometimes Fed makes the ugliest forehand errors, due to the slight incorporation of the Macci Nainkin ideas into his forehand. I've seen Roger almost whiff easy balls that are sitting up & only a little bit short, because Roger in his head prepares the racket in his forehand the way Macci suggests.

Too bad that the conversation is beginning to resemble a free for all. Forum discussions that lose some sense of direction or structure begin to resemble real life...where problems are now so complicated that real solutions are not possible. People shouting at each other in groups...fights ensue. It's human nature. Real bull shit.

But in an attempt to resort to some sense of logic or flow...thank you for your explanation as to how you diverge from the Rick Macci School of Thought with regards to teaching forehand technique. Your explanation makes a lot of sense with regards to your connecting the arm via the elbow to the body on the forehand side. Lack of stability and too much dependency on solely arm motion is a major source of "inconsistency" in the forehands of tennis players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Any good tennis swing or golf swing or batting swing or hockey swing is initiated with a movement of the lower body as Ben Hogan emphasized as his single most important aspect of a golf swing...he emphasized the movement of the hips thusly from the top of the swing but notice how his elbow returns to his side. So in order to connect the lower body platform with the "Lazy Susan" rotation of the upper body the elbow attached to the movement of the hip is a very good place to start.

The major difficulty in teaching the forehand is to get the student to somehow connect the swing of the arm with the other various and vital aspects of the body from the feet up. I mentioned something similar to Chris Lewit in my response to the backhand articles that he is developing. I feel that it is alright for the elbow to separate itself somewhat from the body on the backswing but it is important that it returns to a point very near the area you are referring to on the foreswing.

Connectivity. That's a term that I picked up on here at the forum. How does one teach the level of engagement that is ultimately necessary to play the game of tennis? Obviously there are various schools of thought. Nobody should be above borrowing from another and nobody should feel so arrogant as to not acknowledge that there is absolutely nothing new under the sun and it has all been written about and discovered long before.

I am not above acknowledging that there is some merit in what has been written here in opposition or counter discussion relative to Rick Macci's explanation of the forehand nor would I be so arrogant to not acknowledge what worldsbesttenniscoach has contributed. The truth often lies somewhere in a zone where few can reach...and these are only moments that we borrow. From here...from there. An old Beatles song. The Bible. A poem we once read when we were young and inspired. The time spent with a lover. Sublime moments.

Are there bad coaches out there? I don't know...I don't care. Are there bad students out there? Without a doubt...yes. It's the nature of the beast. The beast yearns and clamors for compassion and understanding but most often what is needed is a good kick in the ass. Laziness is a common culprit. How do you instill inspiration or motivation in a race that is bred for complacency or apathy? How much of the population is pure consumer with little to contribute than the morning offering every day?

Don't believe everything that you hear and only half of what you see. My dear Mother told me this. Video is great...but there are holes in the tool. In the end...each individual is responsible for themselves. What is power? Control is power...first you learn to technically control the ball in order that you can control your opponent tactically. In order to do either...you must learn to have some semblance of control over yourself.

One of the most difficult lessons for a human being is to control what comes out of their mouths...or in this case...out of their keyboards. It was a valid point worldsbesttenniscoach...I hope that in the future you make more of them without having everyone having a shitfit because you have made some criticism without at least an explanation. In my book there is no need for video evidence...I can read. But remember...if you wish to talk to me you must define your terms. I don't say that just to WBTC...but to everyone. But I don't expect anyone to listen...it's the reason that I moved out of my country and into the woods. A tactical retreat. I win.

I hope that the forum returns to some semblance of order...decent posts are getting buried in the utter and incredible nonsense. A garble of insanity...just like the "real" world.