Interactive Forum for February 2014: Stan Wawrinka

[don_budge]

The Stanislas Wawrinka Serve

It's hard not to be happy for Stan for his Australian Grand Slam win--although the outcome could have been different, possibly, if he hadn't had some help from Rafa's back. In any case, after his victory, we received multiple, multiple requests to look at his amazing backhand. First I want to point out that there are hundreds of Wawrinka clips in the regular Stroke Archive that give a very complete picture of his game. (Click Here.)

But here is a new incredible high speed sequence, starting with a first serve and a forehand, that then shows Both Stan's slice and that amazing topspin drive, and wonderfully, from the rear court level angle. And yes, we are putting together a new high speed archive segment on Stan for later this year. In the meantime here are some questions: what can you see about his grip? Preparation? Stance? Body rotation? Swing path? All gorgeous yes! But what about the how and why?

Fantastic video clip, John. It ranks right up there with your last offering of the Tim Henman serve and volley. I really like it when the Interactive Forum is a sequence of shots...it gives us a glimpse into multiple aspects of a players total game as well as possibly being able to cypher something of their tactical play. Great job as usual...thank you very much.

A serve, a defensive forehand, a defensive backhand...and so on and so forth. Regards the camera angle and view...not bad. The only thing else that I would like to see is the rest of the court...the other side of the court. In order to fully comprehend the exchange between the two players. It’s a great clip...there is a lot going on and a lot to discuss. Much like the Tim Henman serve and volley clip. Here we have a Stanislas Wawrinka backcourt exchange clip. Excellent!


The Serve...of Stanislas Wawrinka

It’s an odd motion and it doesn’t make any sense to my eye. The back foot moving forwards when the weight should be shifting backwards totally screws up the timing when the whole package should be unwinding and the racquet head screaming towards the ball.

From the set up position he has set himself up to go in the wrong direction. Stan has the racquet set forwards but his weight is almost entirely on his back foot. His front foot is balanced fully on the heel. The hands go down together and up together with a real sense of synchronicity...but that is where the synergy ends. My God...it is a strange motion. Once his hands are risen to shoulder height, his front foot has now planted itself squarely on the ground which indicates that the weight transfer has gone forwards...also evidenced by the right heel up in the air. At this point deep into his backswing his weight should be following the head of the racquet and the weight should be squarely on the back foot. So what strange compensating move must he make to go forwards now?

Ok...the strange plot thickens. Now the back foot has made a rather unorthodox move into the pin-point stance and he is standing virtually straight up with absolutely zero rotation of his shoulders. Without any discernible further rotation of his shoulders from a position where he is perpendicular to the net he starts to rotate forwards as his racquet is dropping into position behind him. As a result of his unorthodox footwork he is in a position with his racquet dropped behind him and he is virtually in a full frontal position. I have always had the sensation that there was something disturbingly wrong with this service motion but without studying it frame by frame it was never clear as to what was actually wrong with it.

Here is just one more top elite tennis player in the modern game of tennis with some rather glaring deficiencies in the service motion. You know what a big part of the problem is...of course you do. Service motions nowadays are not designed or engineered to be followed to the net. As a result there is a lot of room for liberal interpretation as to what constitutes an effective motion.

The fix for Stanislas is to change to a platform stance. In this manner he will shift his weight back to the back foot as the racquet backswings into position at the top. By assuming a platform stance he won’t have the ass-backwards concept of weight transfer going on so he can more effectively rotate his body backwards...as a result of a more effective rotation backwards he will have stored up enough potential energy to go forwards that will entirely change his way of thinking how he delivers the racquet head to the ball. He will get his legs under him. Once he is there...he will have more effective capability to spin the ball in various ways which will open up his book of service tactics. Interesting that there is so much potential to be realized in one of the world’s most elite players.

When working on my students service motions I have come to the conclusion that it is very important that they are designed as if the player will be following the serve to the net...even though in most cases they will not be. So I have them train in serve and volley mode as a drill to get the proper rotation and feeling that they are rotating into the ball properly. It certainly is ironic that I believe that the champion of this years 2014 Australian Open could benefit from a thirty dollar tennis lesson from a displaced American who is coaching at a small little club in the middle of nowhere of Sweden. Am I hallucinating again?

By the way...yesterday it was the comely Estonian that I trained with the Pancho Segura forehand and backhand who was serving and volleying. The service motion is abbreviated at this point...as you can imagine the lack of natural feeling for the service motion. So both hands raise together from the starting position and we try for a rotation of the shoulders and get the racquet into some semblance of a drop position. From here it is rotate back to the ball with the back foot swinging into the court followed by two quick steps and a shortstop position stop split step (I don’t care for the term split step for some reason)...and then I feed volleys to simulate the volley and close on the net aspect of the serve and volley tactic. It worked out really well. I explain that this is an advanced tactic and technique that may be eventually a part of doubles play. She looks at me with those big blue eyes and nods her head slowly in silence...not a word. The word compliant comes to mind.

You know...if Stanislas had followed this particular serve into the net he would have been making an aggressive volley instead of backing up and playing a defensive forehand.

Next...the rest of the video clip analysis.

[klacr]

You know...if Stanislas had followed this particular serve into the net he would have been making an aggressive volley instead of backing up and playing a defensive forehand.

Glad I'm not the only one that saw that.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[tennis_chiro]

Beg to disagree!!

The Serve...of Stanislas Wawrinka

It’s an odd motion and it doesn’t make any sense to my eye. The back foot moving forwards when the weight should be shifting backwards totally screws up the timing when the whole package should be unwinding and the racquet head screaming towards the ball.

From the set up position he has set himself up to go in the wrong direction. Stan has the racquet set forwards but his weight is almost entirely on his back foot. His front foot is balanced fully on the heel. The hands go down together and up together with a real sense of synchronicity...but that is where the synergy ends. My God...it is a strange motion. Once his hands are risen to shoulder height, his front foot has now planted itself squarely on the ground which indicates that the weight transfer has gone forwards...also evidenced by the right heel up in the air. At this point deep into his backswing his weight should be following the head of the racquet and the weight should be squarely on the back foot. So what strange compensating move must he make to go forwards now?

Ok...the strange plot thickens. Now the back foot has made a rather unorthodox move into the pin-point stance and he is standing virtually straight up with absolutely zero rotation of his shoulders. Without any discernible further rotation of his shoulders from a position where he is perpendicular to the net he starts to rotate forwards as his racquet is dropping into position behind him. As a result of his unorthodox footwork he is in a position with his racquet dropped behind him and he is virtually in a full frontal position. I have always had the sensation that there was something disturbingly wrong with this service motion but without studying it frame by frame it was never clear as to what was actually wrong with it.

Here is just one more top elite tennis player in the modern game of tennis with some rather glaring deficiencies in the service motion. You know what a big part of the problem is...of course you do. Service motions nowadays are not designed or engineered to be followed to the net. As a result there is a lot of room for liberal interpretation as to what constitutes an effective motion.

The fix for Stanislas is to change to a platform stance. In this manner he will shift his weight back to the back foot as the racquet backswings into position at the top. By assuming a platform stance he won’t have the ass-backwards concept of weight transfer going on so he can more effectively rotate his body backwards...as a result of a more effective rotation backwards he will have stored up enough potential energy to go forwards that will entirely change his way of thinking how he delivers the racquet head to the ball. He will get his legs under him. Once he is there...he will have more effective capability to spin the ball in various ways which will open up his book of service tactics. Interesting that there is so much potential to be realized in one of the world’s most elite players.

...

I don't get the big problem here. Until recently, I felt there were two acceptable forms of tossing the ball and the associated rhythm/rock: either you went front to back to front with the arms and the weight synchronized (weight back/arms down, weight forward/arms up) which was best demonstrated in the serves of people like Smith, Newcombe, Krajicek or my favorite, Stich;

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/richardkrajicek/richardkrajicek_serve/rk_1st_serve/rk_1st_serve.html?RK1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

or alternatively, you went simply from back to front like Laver or Sampras or I might add, Don Budge,

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/donbudge/donbudge_sa.html?DB1stSRear.mov

but in either case, the weight was always going forward as the ball tossing hand was rising to release the ball. I could explain most of the differences in the staggered motions to the slope of the shoulders, but that explanation doesn't really hold up anymore.

In today's pro game, there is a whole lot of leapin' going on and I don't think it is helping players who are starting out, but it is what it is. And in these jumping actions, the weight transfer sometimes comes as part of the jump after the actual toss of the ball has been completed.

In Sampras's case, the deep knee bend takes place after he has transferred most of his weight to the front foot and released the ball with the weight transfer continuing to synchronize with the rock from back to front.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSDeuceSide1.mov

I always tried to discourage players from involving knee bend and instead to use knee bow when executing the toss for the sake of consistency. At least Sampras went into his deep knee bend after the ball had left his hand.

In Federer's serve,we have again a slightly different action. He leaves the weight back while he raises the left arm and releases the ball and then deepens his knee bend as he dips further under the ball and forward before exploding up into the serve. Federer's serve is the current gold standard, but I don't like the rhythm and the separation of the weight transfer from the toss.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/RF_Toss&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Toss_Side1_250fps.mp4

The problem I see with Stan's service motion is that he doesn't get enough tilt to his shoulders in the backswing and raises his right elbow a little too high before the racket drop; but this is a minor problem and it doesn't seem to have caused him much of a problem. His internal shoulder rotation is not as good as Sampras' nor is his external shoulder rotation in loading as great as Pete's, but he is a very strong man and has no problem hitting serves above 135 mph. Maybe there is some compensation that takes place that is hooked between the high elbow and the early opening of his body, but his problem is not power. He's got a really deep pro drop and gets the racket shaft on the line to the target early enough to enable him to hit those huge serves.

I actually much prefer his service motion to Federer's. That little move he makes at the beginning of the motion almost reminds me of Emerson and it just gives him a more relaxed motion. His real service motion doesn't start until he has the weight on the back foot.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/stanislas_wawrinka/sw_serve/sw_1st_serve/sw_1st_serve.html?SW1stSDeuceSide1.mov

From there, it looks a lot like Sampras, and I really like the way he synchronizes that back-to-front weight transfer with his toss; I've said it on this forum to seemingly deaf ears, but I really think the synchronization of the toss and the rhythm of the weight transfer/rock is the lynchpin that holds the service together and enables a player to execute despite pressure and fatigue. Federer starts his action with his hands so low that the action is almost completely deliberate; by contrast, Stan's little hand pump at the beginning of the motion is almost like a forward press in a golfer's swing (for those of you that aren't familiar with golf, authorities often say the hardest part of the golf swing is getting it started) and the fact that he gets it a little higher than Federer is just enough to give him a little assist from that ever consistent force, gravity.

Frankly, I wouldn't mess much with Wawrinka's service motion at all. It's too late for that and it's awfully good already. I might try to get him to hook into that use of gravity that he already has going just a little bit more; I might drill him a little bit to get additional internal shoulder rotation and get the racket head pointed down a little earlier after contact. But I would be very careful about even messing with those things. No, I don't like the high position of the elbow early in the backswing, but that is his motion and it works; anything new introduces new variables and could result in an unforeseen stress somewhere in his body. Adopting some of the service practice routines ala Stan Smith that don_budge has mentioned so much in this Forum could be beneficial if he is not already doing that. But the serve is not his problem. Of course, he needs to keep working to improve his consistency and accuracy, but I would be spending as much time as I could, without changing what he was already doing, to improve and strengthen the transition game and his volleys. They are already better than most singles players, but he could experience the most improvement in this area. Hey, he's already at 3 in the world, but if he wants to really threaten the top spots, he's got to get better at transition, finishing at the net and most of all, when to employ that tactic. I would have him playing a lot more doubles events; great chance to work on serves, transition and volleys. Sure the return game in doubles is different, but the disciplined nature of the doubles return is a great developer of overall return skill.

But no, I would not mess with his basic service stance and try to change him over to a platform. Sorry, d_b, I think you are way off base here.

don

[stotty]

Great posts...

Super posts by don_budge and tennis_chiro.

I have to say when you look at Stan's service motion, which is the oddest of any top player to look at, it makes you question how significant what we thought to be significant, is.

The high elbow, often considered undesirable, shows no ill effects when it comes to Stan's serve. The high elbow has gone higher over the last year or so if you compare those in the archive (and other ground level side views shots on the Internet) with this one in the interactive. Yes, it's crept up...or so it seems.

I agree with don_budge about the start of the serve. It's odd. Yet it all comes together in the end. How is that? tennis_chiro goes some to way to explaining things but it's still a mystery to me how this odd, stiff looking action generates what it does.

I often feel this where I can get out of my depth in coaching, recognising valid technique from what isn't, what can be left well alone versus what needs coach intervention. If I had coached Stan when he was twelve I would have changed everything...maybe even ruined everything. I think this is where coaching becomes highly complex, at least to me it does.

[don_budge]

The Stanislas Wawrinka Serve vs. the Pete Sampras motion

In Sampras's case, the deep knee bend takes place after he has transferred most of his weight to the front foot and released the ball with the weight transfer continuing to synchronize with the rock from back to front.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSDeuceSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/stanislas_wawrinka/sw_serve/sw_1st_serve/sw_1st_serve.html?SW1stSDeuceSide1.mov

But no, I would not mess with his basic service stance and try to change him over to a platform. Sorry, d_b, I think you are way off base here.

don

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSAdCourtLevelRear1.mov

No...I am not way off base. Always within 3 sigma as it is. It might be a question of aesthetics...or even one of philosophy. Here is a similar angle of the Sampras motion. You notice too...Sampras' move after he serves is going to the net. Much as I noted in my post. Today's servers immediately retreat back to the baseline as Wawrinka does in this particular sequence. In this decision we see and read into volumes...he could have followed this serve in and probably routinely volleyed it away. But on the other hand...ventures to the net today are adventurous because of the lack of familiarity with the fore court. It is not that today's players could not do it...it is only that they do not. The fact that they do not do it has altered the evolution of the service motion. The motion has devolved in the sense of aesthetics and tactical acumen. Yesterdays motions were designed to propel the player to the net.

You aren't sorry tennis_chiro so there is nothing apologetic about your post. You have stated clearly your position on the service motion and I have a lot of respect for what you have written. It's a really meaningful post to point out the two very different means of transferring the weight. That is a fascinating aspect of the service motion. With regards to golf swings the weight is always transferred to the back foot and then to the front as the golfer swings forwards. Is there something from this that we can glean with regards to service motions? Would something similar to Wawrinka's MO be characterized as a reverse pivot in golf swings? I wonder.

But when I look at Sampras' motion there is something way more appealing to it than the service motion of Wawrinka's. That being said...Wawrinka has just won the 2014 Australian Open fair and square...why would he change? But Sampras won how many Grand Slam titles so maybe it isn't only aesthetics.

The question is about potential. I believe he has a lot more potential...particularly when you consider your comments about transition into the fore court and with more doubles play. He has loads of potential that has not been developed as a tennis player and perhaps his service motion not propelling him to the net is one of the impeding factors.

Most of my commentary is from the teaching point of view also. I am biased in that respect. I never teach pin point stances and sometimes I find myself trying to convert a pin pointer to a platform which is a very interesting puzzle. I don't care for the term "rock" instead I prefer to refer to it for what it is...weight transfer.

It is a most interesting discussion if one considers the argument that you have laid out regarding the weight transfer issues. It is a discussion worthy of much thought. Thanks for your thoughtful reply and discussion about the Stanislas Wawrinka service motion. It's really brilliant no less.

[don_budge]

Great Question...??? How is that?

I agree with don_budge about the start of the serve. It's odd. Yet it all comes together in the end. How is that? tennis_chiro goes some to way to explaining things but it's still a mystery to me how this odd, stiff looking action generates what it does.

Yes...how is that? This is exactly what I am getting at...it appears to me as if Stanislas "RoboCop" Wawrinka is muscling the serve...instead of finessing it. Andy Roddick is another pin point server that comes to mind when it comes to muscling serves instead of finessing. I always prefer finesse over muscle when it comes to tennis technique. Reason being is that with finesse comes a larger range of tactics...muscle limits the creative nature of the brain as well as the range of the motion of the limbs. You must have the proper balance.

If Wawrinka had such a snaky, slinky, silky service motion...complete with Stan Smith service tactics you have to wonder if he might not have been competing for more titles and actually dominated more of his matches.

I think that just about covers my take on this particular service motion...next on my plate is the defensive forehand that he hits right after the serve because he did not press the issue at the net.

[bottle]

(1) The pro tours care more about TV views that include unimportant things like the name of the city behind the court, the sponsor boards that are behind the court, & some spectators in the stands, than they do about providing a TV view in which the TV viewers feel close to the court. (The TV view for pro tournaments now is worse than it has ever been. It used to be pretty good, in some past decades.)

(2) The great coach Peter Burwash for years has emphasized the imp, ortance of the off hand (usually the left hand) in hitting good tennis strokes, obviously including backhands. My old great coach Peter Scott used to teach rhythm drills for 1-hand topspin backhands, so that players could learn to let left & right hands work together.

(3) Wawrinka's topspin backhand is very tight & compact. He tracks the ball with the edge of the racket (in a comparatively forward position).

He starts his backswing almost as the incoming ball is touching the court. Certainly, he does not mindlessly get the racket back too early.

He has a strong hammer grip for his topspin backhand, with the racket throat at a right angle with his forearm.

He positions himself mostly behind the incoming ball, so that when he makes contact, he does not have to straighten his arm out towards the sideline. (His power goes out forward in a line towards the target.)

[Stan's slice backhand uses a weaker grip, with his hand not far enough behind the racket. There are some problems with Stan's slice, which I might discuss later.]

Helpful.

[klacr]

I don't get the big problem here. Until recently, I felt there were two acceptable forms of tossing the ball and the associated rhythm/rock: either you went front to back to front with the arms and the weight synchronized (weight back/arms down, weight forward/arms up) which was best demonstrated in the serves of people like Smith, Newcombe, Krajicek or my favorite, Stich;

but in either case, the weight was always going forward as the ball tossing hand was rising to release the ball. I could explain most of the differences in the staggered motions to the slope of the shoulders, but that explanation doesn't really hold up anymore.

In Sampras's case, the deep knee bend takes place after he has transferred most of his weight to the front foot and released the ball with the weight transfer continuing to synchronize with the rock from back to front.

I always tried to discourage players from involving knee bend and instead to use knee bow when executing the toss for the sake of consistency. At least Sampras went into his deep knee bend after the ball had left his hand.

In Federer's serve, we have again a slightly different action. He leaves the weight back while he raises the left arm and releases the ball and then deepens his knee bend as he dips further under the ball and forward before exploding up into the serve. Federer's serve is the current gold standard, but I don't like the rhythm and the separation of the weight transfer from the toss.

The problem I see with Stan's service motion is that he doesn't get enough tilt to his shoulders in the backswing and raises his right elbow a little too high before the racket drop; but this is a minor problem and it doesn't seem to have caused him much of a problem. His internal shoulder rotation is not as good as Sampras' nor is his external shoulder rotation in loading as great as Pete's, but he is a very strong man and has no problem hitting serves above 135 mph. Maybe there is some compensation that takes place that is hooked between the high elbow and the early opening of his body, but his problem is not power. He's got a really deep pro drop and gets the racket shaft on the line to the target early enough to enable him to hit those huge serves.

I actually much prefer his service motion to Federer's. That little move he makes at the beginning of the motion almost reminds me of Emerson and it just gives him a more relaxed motion. His real service motion doesn't start until he has the weight on the back foot.

From there, it looks a lot like Sampras, and I really like the way he synchronizes that back-to-front weight transfer with his toss; I've said it on this forum to seemingly deaf ears, but I really think the synchronization of the toss and the rhythm of the weight transfer/rock is the lynchpin that holds the service together and enables a player to execute despite pressure and fatigue. Federer starts his action with his hands so low that the action is almost completely deliberate; by contrast, Stan's little hand pump at the beginning of the motion is almost like a forward press in a golfer's swing (for those of you that aren't familiar with golf, authorities often say the hardest part of the golf swing is getting it started) and the fact that he gets it a little higher than Federer is just enough to give him a little assist from that ever consistent force, gravity.

Frankly, I wouldn't mess much with Wawrinka's service motion at all. It's too late for that and it's awfully good already. I might try to get him to hook into that use of gravity that he already has going just a little bit more; I might drill him a little bit to get additional internal shoulder rotation and get the racket head pointed down a little earlier after contact. But I would be very careful about even messing with those things. No, I don't like the high position of the elbow early in the backswing, but that is his motion and it works; anything new introduces new variables and could result in an unforeseen stress somewhere in his body. Adopting some of the service practice routines ala Stan Smith that don_budge has mentioned so much in this Forum could be beneficial if he is not already doing that. But the serve is not his problem. Of course, he needs to keep working to improve his consistency and accuracy, but I would be spending as much time as I could, without changing what he was already doing, to improve and strengthen the transition game and his volleys. They are already better than most singles players, but he could experience the most improvement in this area. Hey, he's already at 3 in the world, but if he wants to really threaten the top spots, he's got to get better at transition, finishing at the net and most of all, when to employ that tactic. I would have him playing a lot more doubles events; great chance to work on serves, transition and volleys.
But no, I would not mess with his basic service stance and try to change him over to a platform. Sorry, d_b, I think you are way off base here.

don

Credit to don to mention the name Krajicek to get me out of the doldrums. Oh man could I watch the 96' Wimbledon Champ's serve on a constant loop and I'll admit, I have numerous times before on this site. Two very nice posts by don_budge and Dr. Don Brosseau and an example of contrasting viewpoints that make this site and these forums so great.

Not certain the platform stance is the end all be all for every player's service motion as some would say. But I do see the simplicity and advantages to it. I like Dr. Brosseau's argument but at the end of the day, I think we can all agree that Wawrinka's motion will probably remain the same when it comes to his stance. Maybe a tweak here or there but nothing too radical.

The biggest issue I find with many pinpoint stances at all levels of the game is that many servers will bring that back foot up parallel with the front foot and the baseline. This is the kiss of death on the serve. These players will open those hips a little too early and the serve suddenly turns into all arm. Leads to a bit of inconsistency and not enough torque into that serve. You see Wawrinka do it a little bit on his serve, Janko Tipsarevic is also pretty noticable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4yznY9hCHY

If players feel more comfortable with a pinpoint stance then I'm not going to force them to go platform but I do compromise with them in that The caveat to a pinpoint is that you must keep that back foot behind the front foot. For a right handed player, this would be right heel to left heel.

To me, nobody does it better than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buCDR_LvqRw

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelSide1.mov

With that back foot still behind, the shoulder turn can be full without forcing it. The shoulder tilt will also benefit as the weight can still be on the back foot (which would still be back) and not off to the side which stunts any chance of a knee or hip bow motion. As for the high elbow, let's correct the foot movement first and see how it affects the shoulder tilt and perhaps that high elbow may not be as high in the future.

I can hit with both pinpoint and platform. However in a match/competitive situation the pinpoint is my natural stance of choice. I adore my serve. Or at least, when I could still serve like my junior and college days (It's been a while ). Granted, the thing about service motions and why some catch our eyes and speak to us is aesthetics. All great servers have a reason to why they serve the way they do, but to us, we are not in their head, we can only speculate and we can only admire. A person's service motion strikes a chord with all of us. As coaches, we see our students, club members and elite/world class players serve. There is an immediate reaction either yay or nay. The serve is such a personal shot. Serve motion origins come with idiosyncracies, stories and tales from years past. Every serve has a story. Would be interesting if Wawrinka told us his.

I know some people that love the Goran Ivanisevic motion, while others loathe it. I try not to discriminate too much as I've tried them all as a kid growing up. Trying to replicate the serves of my favorite players while at the same time trying to find my own unique motion and feeling. The Sampras serve was just way too much and did not have the god given flexibility and talent as Pete. My youth and inexperience in understanding the game took over when I attempted the Edberg motion once and I injured myself in a way I still feel nearly 20 years later. I tinkered with the Krajicek motion and it felt natural. Not so much the power, as that seemed to be from every serve I hit, but the natural rhythm and fluidity. I connected to Krajicek immediately due to his height and thought it would be a nice fit. It has been with me since 1995, a year before his wimbledon triumph.

Is Magnus Norman reading this?

Stan probably won't change a thing, but if he did, he should bring that right heel to that left heel. Or even start with that right foot further to the left towards the singles sideline on his backhand side to compensate for that foot wanting to swing around to the right. Although, if he ever did change to a platform, he can credit don_budge.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

Thank you, don_budge. So many tennis coaches today teach students to rock back on the back foot, just as they lift the ball up straight up on the service toss. Thank you for reinforcing what I was taught by my old great coach Peter Scott -- that the body weight should go at least a little forward as the student lifts the service toss at least a little bit into the court. You get into many details, & I will try to re-read, so that I can learn further from you.

[jdcremin]

Wrist snap

Pretty obvious wrist snap on that serve.

[don_budge]

Wrist snap...

Pretty obvious wrist snap on that serve.

Interesting thread some time ago on this subject...just in case you are interested jdcremin.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1878&highlight=racquet+snaps+wrist

[tennis_chiro]

Wawrinka vs Federer upward action on the toss

I'm having a bit of trouble getting the .mov clips from the archive into Dartfish to do the comparison I wanted to show, but at least you can see from this clip that when Wawrinka's left hand starts to ascend on the toss, his weight is going forward, like Federer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StKp801mD9I

Someone please explain to me the trick in getting from the .mov files in QuickTime to files that Dartfish can recognize or at least that I can convert in a converter so I can set things up side by side in Dartfish.

Phil, any thoughts? Dartfish is Windows

don

[johnyandell]

don,

take a look at TennisplayerTV... on the nav bar...we haven't announced it...but......

[10splayer]

His service coil is interesting in that it appears he doesn't coil his torso as much as some players (of course not as much as Sampras or McEnroe). In the coil phase, his right toe is actually past his left toe, facing towards the net. This would indicate he'll open up his hips early in the swing. His left shoulder also appears more open to the court/net earlier than Fed. Clearly, his serve is not a weakness. So, he's talented. Thoughts?

I tend to prefer a platform stance, but have certainly seen many great pinpoint stance serves over the years. Having said that, and especially given the nature of his more lateral pinpoint, SW doesn't doesn't seem to coil much with the torso. You're right. Indeed, one of the keys to making a lateral PP work, is that as the stance line begins to open, the torso needs to go the other way...coil more. In much the same way an open stance forehand works, there needs to be a differential between the hips and the shoulders to create a nice, tight wind of the torso. Stan could probably do this a bit better.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyY1EXp4sCw&feature=player_detailpage

The above is probably a better example of what one's after with a lateral pinpoint. Notice the position of the right pectoral to that of the belly button in the "set to launch" position. The shoulders are much more closed at this stage then Stan's are with said stance.

With a platform, esp a more closed variety, the torso tends to turn away, almost by default...

Just my 02 cents.

[10splayer]

I don't get the big problem here. Until recently, I felt there were two acceptable forms of tossing the ball and the associated rhythm/rock: either you went front to back to front with the arms and the weight synchronized (weight back/arms down, weight forward/arms up) which was best demonstrated in the serves of people like Smith, Newcombe, Krajicek or my favorite, Stich;

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/richardkrajicek/richardkrajicek_serve/rk_1st_serve/rk_1st_serve.html?RK1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

or alternatively, you went simply from back to front like Laver or Sampras or I might add, Don Budge,

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/donbudge/donbudge_sa.html?DB1stSRear.mov

but in either case, the weight was always going forward as the ball tossing hand was rising to release the ball. I could explain most of the differences in the staggered motions to the slope of the shoulders, but that explanation doesn't really hold up anymore.

In today's pro game, there is a whole lot of leapin' going on and I don't think it is helping players who are starting out, but it is what it is. And in these jumping actions, the weight transfer sometimes comes as part of the jump after the actual toss of the ball has been completed.

In Sampras's case, the deep knee bend takes place after he has transferred most of his weight to the front foot and released the ball with the weight transfer continuing to synchronize with the rock from back to front.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSDeuceSide1.mov

I always tried to discourage players from involving knee bend and instead to use knee bow when executing the toss for the sake of consistency. At least Sampras went into his deep knee bend after the ball had left his hand.

In Federer's serve,we have again a slightly different action. He leaves the weight back while he raises the left arm and releases the ball and then deepens his knee bend as he dips further under the ball and forward before exploding up into the serve. Federer's serve is the current gold standard, but I don't like the rhythm and the separation of the weight transfer from the toss.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/RF_Toss&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Toss_Side1_250fps.mp4

The problem I see with Stan's service motion is that he doesn't get enough tilt to his shoulders in the backswing and raises his right elbow a little too high before the racket drop;

but this is a minor problem and it doesn't seem to have caused him much of a problem. His internal shoulder rotation is not as good as Sampras' nor is his external shoulder rotation in loading as great as Pete's, but he is a very strong man and has no problem hitting serves above 135 mph. Maybe there is some compensation that takes place that is hooked between the high elbow and the early opening of his body, but his problem is not power. He's got a really deep pro drop and gets the racket shaft on the line to the target early enough to enable him to hit those huge serves.

I actually much prefer his service motion to Federer's. That little move he makes at the beginning of the motion almost reminds me of Emerson and it just gives him a more relaxed motion. His real service motion doesn't start until he has the weight on the back foot.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/stanislas_wawrinka/sw_serve/sw_1st_serve/sw_1st_serve.html?SW1stSDeuceSide1.mov

From there, it looks a lot like Sampras, and I really like the way he synchronizes that back-to-front weight transfer with his toss; I've said it on this forum to seemingly deaf ears, but I really think the synchronization of the toss and the rhythm of the weight transfer/rock is the lynchpin that holds the service together and enables a player to execute despite pressure and fatigue. Federer starts his action with his hands so low that the action is almost completely deliberate; by contrast, Stan's little hand pump at the beginning of the motion is almost like a forward press in a golfer's swing (for those of you that aren't familiar with golf, authorities often say the hardest part of the golf swing is getting it started) and the fact that he gets it a little higher than Federer is just enough to give him a little assist from that ever consistent force, gravity.

Frankly, I wouldn't mess much with Wawrinka's service motion at all. It's too late for that and it's awfully good already. I might try to get him to hook into that use of gravity that he already has going just a little bit more; I might drill him a little bit to get additional internal shoulder rotation and get the racket head pointed down a little earlier after contact. But I would be very careful about even messing with those things. No, I don't like the high position of the elbow early in the backswing, but that is his motion and it works; anything new introduces new variables and could result in an unforeseen stress somewhere in his body. Adopting some of the service practice routines ala Stan Smith that don_budge has mentioned so much in this Forum could be beneficial if he is not already doing that. But the serve is not his problem. Of course, he needs to keep working to improve his consistency and accuracy, but I would be spending as much time as I could, without changing what he was already doing, to improve and strengthen the transition game and his volleys. They are already better than most singles players, but he could experience the most improvement in this area. Hey, he's already at 3 in the world, but if he wants to really threaten the top spots, he's got to get better at transition, finishing at the net and most of all, when to employ that tactic. I would have him playing a lot more doubles events; great chance to work on serves, transition and volleys. Sure the return game in doubles is different, but the disciplined nature of the doubles return is a great developer of overall return skill.

But no, I would not mess with his basic service stance and try to change him over to a platform. Sorry, d_b, I think you are way off base here.

don

Nice catch with the upper arm angle/elbow position. But is it a big deal? I've always found it awkward to find the requisite backward tilt of the torso, when the upper arm/humerus bone is riding that high.


Verify this and let me know what you think. I wouldn't be surprised if he could tilt the torso back much easier, if he had the elbow down at a more manageable level. (90 degrees to the torso)