Yesterday's tennis: I find Bill Tilden overrated

[stotty]

What an amazing thread, Phil.

If Tilden at 48 could keep up with Don Budge, then, I am sorry, but it is not Tilden being so great, but Budge's stamina and physical conditioning not up to today's standards. Why couldn't McEnroe do something similar in his late 40's? Today's tennis is a lot more athletic and physically demanding.

You're right about the longevity thing. Don Budge's incredible achievement of beating Gonzales would likely be impossible today because modern rackets have stolen the split seconds needed by a man losing his youth. But then was then and now is now. Budge's achievement is no less remarkable for it when you consider what an immense player Gonzales was.

As regards Tilden, none of us can tell each other what we cannot possibly know. Let's not try. We none of us know the circumstances of those wins or the manner in which they were achieved. There is precious little reliable documentation about Tilden. Kramer was an authority on the game and lived an awful long time. Kramer and Tilden played together at the same club. His take was that Tilden was an exceptional player and the first truly great one. He also judged that Vines eclipsed Tilden, and that for sheer consistency and "mechanics" Budge was better than both. I'm going with Kramer. He had first hand knowledge of Tilden and Vines, and he played against Gonzales. By default he must know more than any of us and his awareness of standards across that period should be taken as reliable.

I have an anecdote as well. A friend of mine, Norbert Escher, years ago when he was a young man about a 5.0 - 5.5 ranked player here in Lugano, beat Maria Bueno handily, and she had the year before won Wimbledon. Marble might have held her own playing doubles, but would have also been soundly defeated playing singles, John.

I regularly played two British girls who played at Wimbledon in the 90's. I beat them handily too. As a man I am not a particularly good player. My son would beat plenty of women in the ladies draw at Wimbledon. Ladies tennis is not men's tennis and never will be. Doubles is different anyway. Strategy and guile can out-do youth.

Just think: it was claimed that Tilden hit a 163 mph serve with a wooden racket! Kind of fits into the general picture...

Even today these devices are unreliable. I have sat at Wimbledon and watched Taylor Dent bang serves down at a tremendous pace. One got recorded at 146mph and was supposedly the fastest serve of the whole championships. Yet others he hit were travelling as fast if not faster and only registered at 125mph. Faulty. Hawkeye makes mistakes too. Back in Tilden's day such measuring devices must surely have been unreliable and should be discounted altogether, no question.

Jack Kramer, before passing into the unknown, revised his opinion and placed Federer as better than Budge as the greatest player ever. In the modern observer's eyes he is unquestionably right. I'm sceptical...in the context of things, that is.

You must be intrigued by "oldies" tennis, Phil, as you keep digging up old clips. I thank you immensely for this.

NOTE: I think Hawkeye makes errors outdoors. The cameras at Wimledon are fixed on poles which will move fractionally here and there when the breeze blows, and especially on windy days. It must have an effect. A centimetre deviation is enough. I have seen errors, most definitely.

[bottle]

Does Norbert Escher beating Maria Bueno mean that I can beat her too?-- John Escher

[gzhpcu]

Stotty, I am indeed intrigued by vintage tennis. It is somewhat akin to the fascination I have for old black and white photographs of the 40's and 50's (have a lot of family photos from my parents...).

Here is my father when we just arrived in LA, 1949:


I find that today's high tech digital cameras don't capture the mood as an old Leika camera...

Here is an old Kodak camera snapshot of me in 1960 on Sam Goldwyn's private tennis court:

In my hand, a Wilson Jack Kramer Prostaff racket...

For all my questioning Tilden's status as a player, I still am fascinated by the era of bygone tennis, with its fascinating characters: Tilden, Von Cramm, Budge, Riggs, Kramer, Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall and so on...

[stotty]

Just love those photos, Phil. I feel the same. We lived in Brazil when I was a kid, and I have lots of black and white photos of my family similar to the one you posted of your dad. The old hair styles and suits add to make the photos so nostalgic, beautiful.

Next time I am in Porto Ceresio to see my in-laws I'll give you a PM. We can have a game. A five-setter. No sitting down at the changeovers, no histrionics from the winner, just a warm handshake and off to the bar. The drinks are on me, Phil.

[gzhpcu]

That would be great Stotty! Hope you can make it soon....

[johnyandell]

Phil,

Love those photos. I bet your dad was a powerhouse. Where was that shot of you taken. I can't tell. LATC?

[klacr]

Awesome pictures Phil. Thanks for sharing. Love that.

Great thing about this post that Phil started, we'll never truly know the answer. All the players mentioned in this thread were great in their own way. Comparing different eras is difficult but all we can do is look at their games and wonder what if...?

Were these guys great because of who they played (level of opponents), how they played (style and dominance) or when they played (Era)? All of the above? Arguments can go either way. If Tilden was around today, would his game have evolved and been similar to Federer's, Djokovic, Murray, Nadal?

We can only guess. This is a great thread though.

I'm working hard on building a time machine. Not surprisingly, It's much more complicated than fixing up a Delorean and hitting 88mph.
But if I ever complete it and am able to go back in time, I'll bring all of you with me and maybe we can answer some of our questions. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure will have nothing on our journey.



Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

John,
My father knew Sam Goldywn, of MGM studios. Sam had a huge villa with a private tennis court in Beverly Hills, and it was rarely used. Sam told my father we could go there and play anytime we wanted! It was a single court in a stadium-like surrounding. In addition, it was always supplied with cans of tennis balls we could use! This was really something, because a can of Wilsons after a couple of hours play on concrete courts were as bald as Yul Brynner's head.

My father taught me how to play, and we usually played on the public courts in Cheviot Hills. We were known as "the father and son team". My father was the greatest father a boy could wish for!

Here is a link to the Cheviot Hills courts today:

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-...a-tennis-magic

Other than courts being renewed, not much has changed...

In the fifties/sixties when we played, Jerry Teeguarden was the resident pro. His son, whose name I forget now, was a very talented player, even if a bit lazy. Dad and I played doubles against them once...

[tennis_chiro]

John,
My father knew Sam Goldywn, of MGM studios. Sam had a huge villa with a private tennis court in Beverly Hills, and it was rarely used. Sam told my father we could go there and play anytime we wanted! It was a single court in a stadium-like surrounding. In addition, it was always supplied with cans of tennis balls we could use! This was really something, because a can of Wilsons after a couple of hours play on concrete courts were as bald as Yul Brynner's head.

My father taught me how to play, and we usually played on the public courts in Cheviot Hills. We were known as "the father and son team". My father was the greatest father a boy could wish for!

Here is a link to the Cheviot Hills courts today:

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-...a-tennis-magic

Other than courts being renewed, not much has changed...

In the fifties/sixties when we played, Jerry Teeguarden was the resident pro. His son, whose name I forget now, was a very talented player, even if a bit lazy. Dad and I played doubles against them once...

Steve Bellamy has become a major force in LA Tennis with the acquisition over the last few years of the concessions at the Westwood courts and the Cheviot Hills courts in addition to his longstanding concession in the Palisades. Of course, he had a tremendous influence on tennis founding the Tennis Channel. And he has two or three sons who are great junior players and one of his sons is playing for USC now.

Jerry Teeguarden's son is Ron Teeguarden

http://www.ronsblogworld.com/?page_id=9

Obviously, he pursued other things after his college tennis career was completed, but he certainly doesn't appear to have been lazy.

Jerry's daughter, Pam Teeguarden, had a more auspicious pro career.

The Cheviot Hills courts are a great place to play. I used to practice there once a week from 6:30 to 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning in the 2000's. The only downside to the place is limited parking.

As for all the other sentiment in this thread and trying to understand some of the players of different eras, ...

When I went to NY to teach tennis after graduating from engineering school in 1970, I had a job where I was the resident head pro in the Vanderbilt Racquet Club in Grand Central Station. And that was literally resident; they gave me a windowless closet off the hallway to the courts to live in for 6 months! During that time I got to play with a lot of great players in NY because I was available and the courts had the same surface as the $10,000 challenge matches in Madison Square Garden, JP Stevens Sportface. It was a semi-fast carpet. Players didn't travel with coaches in those days, much less entourages. When the players would come into NY for their challenge match against Laver (who ran the table), they would be looking for a couple of hours of practice on the surface they were going to play on. I got to hit with Laver 4 times including one session at the Garden with Rosewall and Graebner. I also had full practice sessions with Ashe, Emerson, Ralston getting ready for their matches. I played a number of times with Graebner and ended up founding the Tennis Academy Inc, the corporate form of the Clark Graebner Tennis Academy in Grand Central. Other players I got to play with included Allen Fox, Mike Belkin, Herbie Fitzgibbon. In addition I got to practice with some women including Margaret Court (her lawyer was a club member) and Rosie Casals (in the middle of the night with a famous singer, dusty Springfield, as our ballgirl!). Obviously, I was there at the club almost all the time.

But the first time the club really brought someone out to test me to see if I could play, they had me playing someone in his 40's whom I had never heard of. But they told me the guy had won Wimbledon. Of all the players I played with that year, his balls stood me up on the baseline more than anyone else I played with. That was Dick Savitt, '51 Wimbledon and Australian champion. He was probably making more money than any of his contemporaries as an investment banker. You could see him for years in his box right behind the server at the US Open, just about the best seat in the house, front row. Anyway, Dick is not particularly highly regarded in comparison to the people you are discussing in this thread. And yet, he may have had the heaviest ball in terms of pace, of anyone I have ever hit with. The ball came in so deep and relatively flat that it almost knocked you down trying to deal with it. Granted, I was nobody, but I did have an impartian look at a lot of players. A couple of years later I became friends with Vitas and practiced with him on a number of occasions. I also got to know Pancho Segura and Alex Olmedo pretty well. Got to a 40's and 45's SoCal doubles sectional final with Alex. In '95 I was living in Tampa and my former student, Paul Annacone sent me out to play with Pete Sampras. Pete had not played for a couple of weeks since the victorious Davis Cup effort. We went off to a private court twice to hit for a couple of hours and help him get his timing back.

At the end of all that experience, I don't think the groundstroke skills of players of the past compare with the amazing skills of Djokovic, Nadal, Murray and Federer. It's amazing how big these guys can hit the ball and how consistently and deep the best of them can hit it. But don't discount the skills of the players of the past. I agree, the video makes you really wonder about Tilden. But the judgement of someone like Kramer has to have significant weight.

The rackets and strings and even the courts have changed so much over the last 60 years, not to mention the film technology, but those guys could really play. And the transition and front court skills of the players I saw up close and personal were way ahead of anyone who plays today. But there is a big difference in the way that generation saw a short ball. We saw it as an opportunity to approach; today's players see it as an opportunity for a groundstroke-like overhead. They hit the short forehand just about as hard as an overhead; I never saw anyone do that before about 1985. But kids who learned with oversize frames began to see those balls differently in the mid 80's.

And, Phil, it's wonderful to see those old photos and bring back those memories. Likewise with the great video clip finds.

don

[gzhpcu]

Don,
I envy your memories! You have been one lucky person to have played with and known so many of the tennis icons of the 60's and 70's! Any old photos?

[tennis_chiro]

Don,
I envy your memories! You have been one lucky person to have played with and known so many of the tennis icons of the 60's and 70's! Any old photos?

Sadly, no pictures; just fading memories.

don

[stotty]

Savitt

That was Dick Savitt, '51 Wimbledon and Australian champion. He was probably making more money than any of his contemporaries as an investment banker. You could see him for years in his box right behind the server at the US Open, just about the best seat in the house, front row. Anyway, Dick is not particularly highly regarded in comparison to the people you are discussing in this thread. And yet, he may have had the heaviest ball in terms of pace, of anyone I have ever hit with. The ball came in so deep and relatively flat that it almost knocked you down trying to deal with it.
don

Strange, someone I spoke to only recently who played Savitt said exactly the same thing. Life can be weirdly uncanny at times.

[klacr]

Jerry Teeguarden's son is Ron Teeguarden

http://www.ronsblogworld.com/?page_id=9

Obviously, he pursued other things after his college tennis career was completed, but he certainly doesn't appear to have been lazy.

In '95 I was living in Tampa and my former student, Paul Annacone sent me out to play with Pete Sampras. Pete had not played for a couple of weeks since the victorious Davis Cup effort. We went off to a private court twice to hit for a couple of hours and help him get his timing back.


don

Don,

Interesting to read Ron Teeguarden's bio. Went to University of Michigan. I like that. There are two types of people in this world, those that went to University of Michigan and those that WISH they went to the University of Michigan.

As for you living in Tampa in 95'. That's when I was entering my prime in the Tampa area. I also worked at Harry Hopman/Saddlebrook resort for a number of seasons. Saw Sampras there a handful of times. I was always tempted to ask him to hit or play a set. Although I feel like it would have gone straight to a tie-break in which he'd pull off a backhand return he hasn't hit the entire set at just the right moment. Never seemed like he was "into" practice all that much.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

You all have had many interesting experiences. Wow.

One thing to keep in mind as we compare players of different eras is that players have difficulty surpassing the skills of future generations, because only the skill level of the current generation is available to try to match or surpass.

For instance, Budge had no idea about the challenges he would face against Nadal, so of course Budge was trying to figure out a way to become better than Fred Perry & other players of his own day, not better than Nadal.

Yesteryear's great players were good athletes, with good attitudes & work ethics, so they would have adjusted to today's level of play on the international circuit. Of course, if yesteryear's players never saw today's skill level, amount of work, etc., then yesteryear's players would not have made the adjustments necessary to compete consistently against today's players.

I started watching international championship tennis in person in 1968. Each year, I saw many different tournaments. It was easy for me to notice that, in general, the skill level of the international circuit was gradually improving, year by year. Once a bar is set, players know what to shoot for. If they don't know what is needed to be great, then of course players cannot reach that great level.

(But I am not one in awe of today's play. Even today's international level of play has a long way to go. For instance, a year & a few months ago, Edberg almost beat Tsonga in an exhibition match in which both players were trying their best. Tsonga was in top shape, but Edberg was not in form -- Edberg was just available. My point: Don't be too quick to idolize today's players or to forget players from the past.)

[stotty]

You all have had many interesting experiences. Wow.

One thing to keep in mind as we compare players of different eras is that players have difficulty surpassing the skills of future generations, because only the skill level of the current generation is available to try to match or surpass.

For instance, Budge had no idea about the challenges he would face against Nadal, so of course Budge was trying to figure out a way to become better than Fred Perry & other players of his own day, not better than Nadal.

Yesteryear's great players were good athletes, with good attitudes & work ethics, so they would have adjusted to today's level of play on the international circuit. Of course, if yesteryear's players never saw today's skill level, amount of work, etc., then yesteryear's players would not have made the adjustments necessary to compete consistently against today's players.

I started watching international championship tennis in person in 1968. Each year, I saw many different tournaments. It was easy for me to notice that, in general, the skill level of the international circuit was gradually improving, year by year. Once a bar is set, players know what to shoot for. If they don't know what is needed to be great, then of course players cannot reach that great level.

(But I am not one in awe of today's play. Even today's international level of play has a long way to go. For instance, a year & a few months ago, Edberg almost beat Tsonga in an exhibition match in which both players were trying their best. Tsonga was in top shape, but Edberg was not in form -- Edberg was just available. My point: Don't be too quick to idolize today's players or to forget players from the past.)

Worldsbesttenniscoach...you just got my respect. You're right. No one aims for a target they cannot see.