Slow motion comparison: Borg - Federer Forehand

[gzhpcu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2tMST05MbE

Federer has the more modern compact backswing, though in his days Borg's forehand was also a radical departure from the norm...

[bottle]

Trouble with link.

[julian1]

The link does not wok

Trouble with link.

The link does not work
The little stupid message is:
"Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage"

[gzhpcu]

Ooops...sorry, I corrected it, should work now...

[stotty]

I find them different

I find their forehands very different. The way they initiate their forehands is almost opposite. Borg dips the racket downwards at the start; Federer takes the racket up slightly then back. Borg sometimes goes beyond the plane of the body with his backswing; Federer is ATP and compact. Borg is double bend; Federer is straight arm. I'd need 10splayer to decipher the flip element because it's tricky to detect from the clip.

Borg had a very consistent forehand. Going from memory it was more consistent than Federer's but nowhere near as good in the mid-court...no one's was back then.

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

Federer hits some amazing forehands, but sometimes his forehand goes off for long periods, in which he gives his opponent many free points. While Fed can hit some amazing forehand passing angles, no one could find impossible angles for passing, consistently, the way Borg did.

Fed's first forehand reaction to the incoming ball is to turn his shoulders & start to get his racket back, the way many modern players do. Borg, to skilled eyes, in the video did a better job setting the racket preparation out front & tracking the ball better. (I like Borg's rhythm better than I like Fed's forehand rhythm.)

Federer mishits his forehand a lot. Borg, by the end of his career, could hit his forehand pretty hard & offensively, yet still maintain consistency.

[10splayer]

Stotty,

As per your request I will be glad to offer my thoughts, but cant get the link to work..Maybe you can figure it out.

[stotty]

Stotty,

As per your request I will be glad to offer my thoughts, but cant get the link to work..Maybe you can figure it out.

Try this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUb68yuZ6WY

[stroke]

I find their forehands very different. The way they initiate their forehands is almost opposite. Borg dips the racket downwards at the start; Federer takes the racket up slightly then back. Borg sometimes goes beyond the plane of the body with his backswing; Federer is ATP and compact. Borg is double bend; Federer is straight arm. I'd need 10splayer to decipher the flip element because it's tricky to detect from the clip.

Borg had a very consistent forehand. Going from memory it was more consistent than Federer's but nowhere near as good in the mid-court...no one's was back then.

I think lc pretty much nailed it here. The only thing they have in common is grip structure. Borg did not have a western grip as many think. It looks like a mild semi western to me. I would also like to hear 10splayer's thoughts on it.

[stotty]

I think lc pretty much nailed it here. The only thing they have in common is grip structure. Borg did not have a western grip as many think. It looks like a mild semi western to me. I would also like to hear 10splayer's thoughts on it.

I think it's easy to get duped in to believing they are similar because what their bodies are doing are similar...you know, the way they set up and shape their bodies. The photo snapshots within the video illustrate this well.

[stroke]

LC, my guess would be no flip for Borg. The elements just are not there as you aptly pointed out in your analysis.

[stotty]

LC, my guess would be no flip for Borg. The elements just are not there as you aptly pointed out in your analysis.

I see no flip, nor in the archive. Great forehand, though. The best ever up until that point in time. I cannot think of a better one in his era or before. In clay court matches he hardly missed any.

These days forehands are so deadly in the midcourt. The thing with the ATP forehand (coupled with modern rackets and strings) is players can hit a dead ball so hard. I have sat just ten rows back at Wimbledon and watched Federer hit those midcourt forehands, and I cannot tell you how smooth, fluent and powerful that shot is. He makes it look so easy as well.

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

hmmmm. I see Federer & other pro players today handling short balls poorly. They prepare their forehands with rackets set too far back. Then they let the ball come to them rather than naturally flow forward with their swing. In addition, today's players haven't the same feel as players of the past had, in anticipating when a short ball to them will occur. I see plenty of blown or poor approach shots today by the pros, in reaction to short balls that come to them.

So many players today love it when they slug it out, behind baseline to behind baseline, but are thrown off in timing & positioning when they get a short ball.

[stotty]

I see compactness...

hmmmm. I see Federer & other pro players today handling short balls poorly. They prepare their forehands with rackets set too far back. Then they let the ball come to them rather than naturally flow forward with their swing. In addition, today's players haven't the same feel as players of the past had, in anticipating when a short ball to them will occur. I see plenty of blown or poor approach shots today by the pros, in reaction to short balls that come to them.

So many players today love it when they slug it out, behind baseline to behind baseline, but are thrown off in timing & positioning when they get a short ball.

I am not sure about this because Federer's main game plan is to serve well then peel away and hit forehands. He's hoping for short replies off his serve so he can dominate and seize control of rallies. He's had a tremendous career doing this. Few players can dispatch mid court balls like Fedrerer.

His forehand is perhaps more compact than you might think. Much of what looks like backswing is the racket being pulled through and left behind as his arm moves forward.

This article below explains so much and so well what is really going on. There is also a clip of Federer that clearly shows the point his racket arm starts to move forwards and the racket momentarily left trailing behind.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/brian_gordon/developing_an_atp_forehand_part_01/index_2.html

I do however think many players blast the trickier midcourt ball when they should have hit an approach shot. But that's another story for another thread...

[10splayer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4VxccAUPto&hd=1

I think, the short answer is no. (think you two have it right) Very little flip in Borg's forehand. Let's look at a couple videos and I'll point out what i look for in assessing the amount of flip.

The position of the forearm and racquet face at the BOTTOM of the loop is what's critical. The forearm must be pronated (to greater or lesser degrees) and the face must be closed WHEN the racquet is pulled. This can be a bit deceiving, because players can, and do, close the face at different times throughout the backswing. Many however, will begin to open it in the later stages. So by the time they reach the bottom of the loop, the racquet is opened and arm is rotated externally externally. No flip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpLOObXHzDM&hd=1Take a look at this Sampras video.

Pete begins the backswing by elevating the elbow and closing the racquet face. But look what happens as he steps up to the top of the loop. He begins to supinate his forearm thus opening the racquet face. FRom there, he simply drops it into the slot, so at the bottom of the swing, the racquet face is more or less "on edge" and his arm is already externally rotated. There's nothing to "flip". Borg (in a less dramatic way) essentially does the same thing.

Now take a look at the FED video at the top. Remember, these guys have very similar grips. (which has a bearing on the racquet face angle) Easier comparison. Roger does something entirely different. He pronates his forearm throughout the backswing sequence. Notice how the racquet face NEVER opens until he pulls it at the bottom of the loop. This quick closed face/pronated forearm to opened face/supinated forearm transition is the mythical flip/stretch shorten load.

Btw, I was looking at some video of Laver, and I think he had a generous amount of flip...Pioneer.