Split step

[10splayer]

julian1 julian1 is offline

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 433
Default footwork of Dimitrov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od_7c6eD1Qk

What do you all see here, and is this athletic? Mind you, this is a 6 foot 3 inch man, which is pretty much becoming the norm.

Oh, and by the way, do that for 4 and 1/2 hours.

[mrtennis]

Yes it must be very frustrating to be the world's best tennis coach, to have so much knowledge of the fatal flaws in the games of some of the greatest players of all times and yet to be be sidelined on a message board instead of in the players' boxes of so many in need of your help.

[captnemo]

I will second mrtennis on this one. I looked at the split step video Stotty posted. This invalidates the comic claim pros stand around and split step late. I personally have no idea what the issue of worldsbesttennis coach and his arm chair worldview has to do with hockey either. I like this forum better when the discussions stay on point.

[10splayer]

Mr tennis:

Wow, where do I start. We've all got our opinions. And you know what, the best coaches are not on the ATP tour, the best coaches are the ones slogging it out, getting no credit, and silently developing the 6-7-8-9 year old's. I can't help but tell you the great information and advise I have gotten on this site from guys who LOVE Tennis. You know, a guy who loves the game, will always teach a kid better than a person who is a "Professional On The Tour." Really, lets face it, the guys on this board all smart guys, and could have made more money selling cars or managing a business, but they love tennis, and they stayed with it through the shit, and we need to show them a bit more respect as they are the guys who make the BIG NAMES ON THE PRO tour looking good by developing the kids. For every Bolletierri or Macci, theirs been some underpaid assistant who is treated like shit, works injured and is on the courts like a slave laborer who developed their players, hit with them, and spent the majority of the 10,000 hours getting them there. Its not the big guys. So, Mr Tennis with all due respect, respect the small guy with the big dreams, cause he'll get that kid there, and pass along his love of the sport as well!It always amazes me how the best coaches in the world never want to work with the kids, but their happy to work with them when someone has done the whole job for them and the kid is 20 to 22.

I really like people like worldclasscoach or whatever he calls himself (sorry, LOL) who set the bar higher. I did a test with my kid, and her 22 year old hitting partner recently. I made them watch a woman's match from the 1960's. It was bad. The 1970's a bit better. Then we watched Serena with her new strings and racket. I started to bitch and complain about Serena. Bad footwork, she can't hit hard, slow, out of shape etc. They both started laughing. I ragged on Serena's game for a good 30 minutes. They both started getting mad. Then I explained. They disagreed. Everything I said was just shit. I was thinking in terms of 2050 tennis. I was purposeful in my actions that day. Serena will look bad in 2050, just as the 1960's tennis looks bad to them now. We, as coaches have to be careful we don't admire to much! And those with the vision who don't admire, that's great, because sooner or late the reality they live with now will be our reality 40 years from now when we are watching these "greats Federer, Agassi ect." In 2050, sorry guys, our strokes will look stupid, finishes will be better, athletes will be 6'10, they'll laugh at our nutrition and I will be like Don Budge complaining about how tennis was ruined when they went to the new strings, and changed the rackets to the new space age material they found when they landed on MARS in 2030.

Now, lets be realistic please! Grigor is above average in footwork. Love him. That is the footwork you get when you're mama is a world class volleyball and athletic's coach my friend! He isn't naturally athletic in my opinion, however, he's a product of some exceptional mentor-ship. I was rather surprised with how bad his football skills are for a Euro.

Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TGGFzMqhAE

Novak and Rafa much better, however, having a mama volleyball player, or a daddy boxer (Agassi) can take you a long way in tennis! They say you can't teach athleticism in the mainstream sports, and I agree, their's a lot of freaks , however it can be done in tennis (Davenport, Sharapova and the list goes on and on).

Grigor is very average compared to NBA and NFL players. World class coach is right, tennis footwork is ten years behind the major American sports. We have a minor pro Russian basketball team play out here in Ukraine, and our hitting partner dude is a top 15 player in Ukraine, and the minor pro player (on level beneath super league Ukraine) is so much better athletically it's not comparable.

I am not sure is Grigor has the athletic gifts to be a NBA or NFL player. Hockey yes, we're a notch below those two sports sorry to say.

Check out Allen Iverson, or Kobe Bryant, small men, 6'1 to 6'5. Not comparable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REkZG-dhHc

Micheal Vick (NFL)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b76VkA0x0Rw

Seth Jones (NHL, son of Popeye, 6'7", dad is former NBA player)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AChs9hGb_UM

And, I am sorry, try playing 35 minutes in a hot NHL rink, with 30 pounds of gear, which by the third period carries water weight, snow weight and sweat. Oh, and by the way, you get hit, often, hard, violent, 4000 +++ pound of force (kind of like getting run over by a bull) 10 - 15 times a game.

Yes, a tennis match is sometimes four hours long, but how long is the ball in play really, and how much of it is hard, moving above and beyond a 30 second pain threshold ect. I'd be interested in seeing an exact stat for the amount of time a ball is actually in play over a pro match. The conditions I'd think are much simpler than the football player (NFL - who is in a hot sun, a place with a HUGE crowd (more heat level, heavy equipment, serious hits, hard sprinting, power ect) or a hockey player who's dealing with some big time dangers.

I hate to say it but tennis is a relatively easy game to play athletically in terms of psychology and work rate compared to the other sports just because of the radical hitting and physical danger elements.

A lot can be done to improve it's athleticism and training (tennis), and in the past 4-5 years their's obviously been a major shift, and the sport is now understanding their's a lot of room to gain (especially on the woman's side).

Hockeyscout,

You make some very fine points, and indeed we are all entitled to our opinion. In this case, we will have to agree to disagree. When considering the combined requisite physical and technical skills, I'll continue to put tennis right there at the top..... For what its worth, my vote goes to boxing. Athleticism, endurance, technical mastery, will, and brass balls.

I wish you the best in your development with your daughter as you seem very involved. What a great thing....This is a terrific site for such a project. There are many great minds here.


I would love to hear peoples opinion on the video though. Esp those that have made such bold statements as there are no split steps, basic movement patterns not an athletic sport etc

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

The video of Federer hitting a forehand, in this thread, shows Roger hitting a loopy, short shot, but it does not show the opponent hitting the ball & Roger doing a split step at the same time. It is a short video that does not give us enough information.

The video of Dmitrov here shows only Dimitrov, but does not show the locations of incoming balls to Dmitrov. (Where is the exact location of the ball, as Dmitrov split steps?) Again, the video does not provide us with enough information. I notice that Dmitrov sometimes does a split step, & other times just pushes off with his feet from the position that he is at. When Dmitrov does a split step, it is only an inch or so. That is good. I compare a low split step to the pronouned split steps that Murray used to make on every shot. Murray's split step definitely made him late in starting to the ball, many times.

I don't think Dmitrov consciously forces himself to do split steps. Dmitrov lets split step happen naturally. I think that if split steps are forced, it often can actually slow down the player. Again, our "expert" tennis coaches in the USA observed something that happens naturally, & then think it is such a great insight that they jam that thought down players' throats too much. I am not against a split step, but it is overemphasized.

I have an HD television, with a recorder that can replay tennis points at 1/100th normal speed (& 1/15, & 1/4). Believe me, as I replay points in slow motion, sometimes the opponent's shot is just passing over the net, & the player is in the air doing a split step. In these circumstances, it is impossible for the player to react as quickly as is humanly possible.

I have seen some comments in this thread about what great natural athletes the pro tennis players of today are. Hmmmm. I wonder how we could scientifically test that assertion. Opinion & human testimony count in court trials, but they are the weakest form of scientific evidence.

I have backgrounds in Behavior Analysis, & in effective, mastery Direct Instruction. I believe that average persons can learn to do extraordinary things, if the environment is structured properly. I don't see the current pros as having been born with wonderful abilities that other people don't have.

As Mr. Miyagi said, in the first Karate Kid movie, "No such thing as bad student; only bad teacher." The world's top educator, Siegfried Engelmann, took his excellently designed teaching programs to the areas of USA in which kids were most likely to fail (i.e., inner city, low-income rural, reservations). All those many 1000s of kids succeeded, & surprised the "expert" educational observers. Engelmann's attitude was that if the kid made a mistake, it was probably not the kid's fault. Rather, it was due to poor instuctional design in the teaching presention, or in the curriculum.

In the USA, we are so quick to believe some people "have it," & others don't. In other countries, such as Japan, the people believe more than many people "have it," so if you want to finish on top, you must be sure to work & try very hard.

[10splayer]

The video of Federer hitting a

forehand, in this thread, shows Roger hitting a loopy, short shot, but it does not show the opponent hitting the ball & Roger doing a split step at the same time. It is a short video that does not give us enough information.

Yes, this is a split step. Glad you acknowledge that, it a good start. It's an agressive form of one whereby they land on the foot (first) opposite the direction of movement. It's leads to the most explosive response and is ususally reserved for covering a lot of ground or when they're behind time. They also will also land more "neutral" when the ball and or time is greater....The timing is that exact....

The video of Dmitrov here shows only Dimitrov, but does not show the locations of incoming balls to Dmitrov. (Where is the exact location of the ball, as Dmitrov split steps?) Again, the video does not provide us with enough information. I notice that Dmitrov sometimes does a split step, & other times just pushes off with his feet from the position that he is at. When Dmitrov does a split step, it is only an inch or so. That is good. I compare a low split step to the pronouned split steps that Murray used to make on every shot. Murray's split step definitely made him late in starting to the ball, many times.

It's conclusive in that, considering the demands of the incoming ball, and the court that is covered he finds good alignment to the ball and executes. He rarely gets wrong footed.

I don't think Dmitrov consciously forces himself to do split steps. Dmitrov lets split step happen naturally. I think that if split steps are forced, it often can actually slow down the player. Again, our "expert" tennis coaches in the USA observed something that happens naturally, & then think it is such a great insight that they jam that thought down players' throats too much. I am not against a split step, but it is overemphasized.

How do you know what he is consciously doing? Ridiculous. Besides "we" in the U.s are not known for an overemphasis on footwork. (to say the least) Do you have any experience at all in the industry?



ograI have seen some comments in this thread about what great natural athletes the pro tennis players of today are. Hmmmm. I wonder how we could scientifically test that assertion. Opinion & human testimony count in court trials, but they are the weakest form of scientific evidence.

I

have backgrounds in Behavior Analysis, & in effective, mastery Direct Instruction. I believe that average persons can learn to do extraordinary things, if the environment is structured properly. I don't see the current pros as having been born with wonderful abilities that other people don't have.

As Mr. Miyagi said, in the first Karate Kid movie, "No such thing as bad student; only bad teacher." The world's top educator, Siegfried Engelmann, took his excellently designed teaching prms to the areas of USA in which kids were most likely to fail (i.e., inner city, low-income rural, reservations). All those many 1000s of kids succeeded, & surprised the "expert" educational observers. Engelmann's attitude was that if the kid made a mistake, it was probably not the kid's fault. Rather, it was due to poor instuctional design in the teaching presention, or in the curriculum.

In the USA, we are so quick to believe some people "have it," & others don't. In other countries, such as Japan, the people believe more than many people "have it," so if you want to finish on top, you must be sure to work & try very hard.

Dude, these are the best of the best....Natural talent and structured environment are not mutually exclusive. These guys are supremely talented and have worked there asses off. Wow.

[captnemo]

One mark of a "great" coach, if the coach is in fact "great' is to learn from his mistakes. And graciously admit them.

When people start backpedding and saying stuff such as "There is not enough information for conclusive proof, etc" that sounds like the defense attorney of the guilty praying for one sucker on reasonable doubt.

But let's up the evidence ante:

Wide ClosedStance CourtLevel Rear2 500fps

[hockeyscout]

Video won't work ...

The video does not work. Maybe we are missing something here. Will this 2013 paradigm work in 2025? Is the 2000 model of tennis true today? No. Is the 2008 model true today? No. Things change so quick.

[hockeyscout]

ZBoys

By the way, this kind of must have been like Sampras, Davenport and Austin all great western USA kids coming up at the same time, from the same neighborhood at the same court, or same state.

[klacr]

I like it when guys say "requisite physical and technical skills" -- but come on. How about some facts to back it up? I am not so sure about that. In terms of difficulty I would place tennis below basketball, boxing, MMA, football and hockey. The best athletes are in those sports. I'd put downhill skiing ahead of tennis. Some would put soccer well ahead of tennis, however, that's a tough sell to a North American crowd. It was never really our game was it? Boxing. Yes, I will agree. Brutal sport. Technically difficult. I'm curious, you think hitting a ball over the net with a tennis racket is more complex than a three point shot in basketball under pressure, an NFL QB hitting a 60 yard pass, or a hockey goalie stopping a 105 mph short from point blank range in the slot? Really? If tennis requires more physical and technical skills wouldn't the best American athletes want to play the most complex sport possible? The freaks gravitate to boxing, basketball, boxing, MMA, soccer, football and hockey. Jordan, Ali. Lebron, Shaq, Gretzky, Thorpe, Tyson, Chamberlain and Magic! With all due respect, several top tennis player never established themselves as world class soccer, football, basketball or baseball players player at a young age, however, many, many, many athletes like Iverson, Bryant, Howe, Gretzky, Jackson, Iverson were "world class" in many sports. Those of you who say "its a lot of hours a kid needs to spend on tennis to be good", haven't seen kids in Harlem, they spend over 50 hours a week on the court. It's unreal, they just play, play and play.
Anyways, In 1999 Sports Century rated the greatest athletes of all-time. And in order (1) Baseball (23 in top 100), (2) Football - 20, (3) Track - Field, (4) Basketball (5) were the top four in terms of raw talent output. Sorry, but I really think you could put MMA, downhill skiing (a true sport for those with balls and guts, those dudes are crazy), hockey and Olympic Sports ahead of tennis, so they agree with me.

As for me being involved in my kids tennis. Hell, I love coaching. You ain't a coach if you don't take something from every sport, individual and business! Hockey is a tough game to coach. I have to admit I wasn't pleased when my daughter chose tennis. Like WTF guys, she's what a November 2005, half Canadian, close to 90 pounds, over five feet tall, naturally aggressive and she says no to hockey! My buddies get a good chuckle out of it. Anyways, I got to tell you guys, their's no way I would let my kids play hockey after having the first one come into tennis. This sport is great, expensive, and out of reach, but hockey is the same. The good thing about it is my kid isn't going to have a concussion, and soccer, boxing, hockey and all these sports just aren't worth it. Plus I don't have to sit in damb cold rinks. Anyways, its fun taking what I know from hockey (and the other sports I know like, my mom was a hell of a basketball player (I am only 6'4, to small for that sport but I played point guard), baseball, soccer, football and all the rest over to tennis, and hey, my kid loves it like love hockey, so what the heck, dive in and have some fun! I've also got a lot of buddies in other sports (who coach), and you've got to learn from them as you'd be stupid not to admire boxing, running, basketball, boxing, MMA, soccer and football coaches for the technical and tactical god's that they are! I got to say, I have had a blast learning tennis, and seeing how absolutely 100 percent different your ideas are from the other mainstream sports. Its kind of incredible how different the tennis industry is from every other sport industry. It's an eye opener!

And, hey I got to say I really agree with worldsbesttenniscoach. His stuff makes sense to me. However, I am not married to traditional dogma. Maybe in two or three years when I reach 10,000 hours of tennis study, I will think differently, who knows.

Great posts here anyways. This is starting to read like a boxing forum where everyone's getting really excited! That's great. Keep it coming boys! Pretty soon a hockey game will break out! You know the saying, I went to a boxing match and a hockey game broke out!

hockeyscout,

I happen to participate in MMA training and competition. It's difficult. Physically exhausting and takes some mental flexibility and fortitude. Kinda like many of the tennis matches I've played in my life. But I think to compare tennis to MMA, or to any other sport is difficult if not improbable. It's apples to oranges. I do understand what you are saying and I like it

Arguments like these are of the classic bar sports debates. It can go on and on. Much like religion or politics, you'll never get the opposition to sway no matter how good the argument is. Entertaining yes, making progress towards those that see differently, no.

BTW, if anyone out there knows someone 6'6" and 215lbs that would like to spar please let me know. Difficult to find people my size in South Florida.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[captnemo]

The video is working.

[hockeyscout]

I am 6.4 and the wife is 6.3 ... Doubles with you and the wife? Heights might average out?

[klacr]

That would work hockeyscout. Not too many successful lobs in that doubles match.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[lobndropshot]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DropVFront.mov

What do you guys think?

[stotty]

Neat footwork...great feel

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DropVFront.mov

What do you guys think?

Love the way Don Budge split steps and sweeps to the side of the ball to play that first volley. He's nimble and keeps the racket head up through the shot. Expertly done through years of practice. When you watch him hit that first volley, you get the impression he probably had great feel. It's so hard to tell things like that through these old clips, but that one shot that gives it away for me. I find him a very elegant player, too.

From his oncourt posture and body language, I get the impression his character was upstanding and excellent...I get the impression he was a good person.

don_budge is very luck to have known Don Budge.