Arguement about hitting up on the serve

[ralph]

For years I been arguing with a friend about whether servers are more effective hitting up or down on the ball. I believe that hitting up on the ball is the answer. My friend contends that John Isner because of his height has a distinct advantage because he is hitting down on the ball. Looking at his footage even he seems to be hitting up by using the cartwheel and the way he explodes up into the air. Can some one suggest definitive proof that I can present to my friend to convince him up is better?

Ralph

[johnyandell]

Ralph,

Look from the rear. The racket tip is definitely going up at contact.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Rear1_250fps.mp4

But from the side see the angle of the arm is tilted forward--you could say angled downward.
And the ball does leave on a downward trajectory.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Side1_250fps.mp4

OK you guys tell me, up or down?

[bottle]

Both. (The obvious doesn't bother me.)

[stotty]

Sorry to put the spanner in the works. In the case of the Federer clip...you're all wrong. It's neither upward nor downward. It's dead level.

[don_budge]

U & O...

Sorry to put the spanner in the works. You're all wrong. It's neither upward nor downward. It's dead level.

Up and over for spin...up and around for slice. You may make an argument for down for a cannonball or absolutely flat serve. Up and out for a kick.

[dimitrios]

Still doesn't seem that there's a definitive answer here from the group. (Even after watching the video clips I'm not sure I can say with certitude exactly how Fed is swinging the racquet.) And this is a fundamental question.

Indeed some people I see serving tend to give the impression that they're "coming over the top" of the ball a bit more; others I've seen -- especially those with a toss that's not much into the court but closer to the baseline -- show what seems to be a more upward swing motion, which incidentally produces a serve with greater spin.

Hmmm....

[bowt]

all players hit the ball down go look at the video in high speed

[stotty]

all players hit the ball down go look at the video in high speed

You can look at that Federer clip in super high-speed all day long but still cannot determine whether it's up, down, or what I think...dead level. Plus the same serve can look different when viewed from different angles.

It may well be a pointless argument anyway. More likely it's the path of the racket head 12 inches before and after the contact that determines how the ball will travel when it is hit. The contact point is but a split second and it's most probably the server's intention (slice, topspin, flat) that matters most.

I think the argument may be a pointless one...

[don_budge]

You can look at that Federer clip in super high-speed all day long but still cannot determine whether it's up, down, or what I think...dead level. It may well be a pointless argument anyway. More likely it's the path of the racket head 12 inches before and after the contact that determines how the ball will travel when it is hit. The contact point is but a split second and it's most probably the server's intention that matters most.

I think the argument may be a pointless one...

It's a mute point and a stupid arguement. It's really about what you feel or how to get your student to feel it. Typical tennis stuff...arguments are always inconclusive.

boat...these are strange days. Don't believe everything you hear and only half of what you see.

[bottle]

bot to bowt

(Just wanted to say that.)

[dimitrios]

It's a mute point and a stupid arguement. It's really about what you feel or how to get your student to feel it. Typical tennis stuff...arguments are always inconclusive.

With all due respect: I'm not sure it's a "stupid argument" at all. We spend countless days and hours analyzing and dissecting strokes, including discussing the "SSC" and "pulling" the butt cap through the hitting zone, etc., and suddenly the swing path of the most important shot in the game seems to get short shrift?

If we're talking then about "feel" here, what is it we'd like to get the student to feel re the serve and its swing path?

[ralph]

I am not sure if it is pointless. I have a young lady on my team who is sure she has to hit down on the ball as if she is spiking a volley ball serve. She has very little shoulder tilt and has difficulty putting spin on the ball. In several sources I have seen over the years the comparison has been made that serving is like throwing a ball high into the air. Right now I believe that one should be exploding up into the ball and letting the down on the ball happen naturally.

Ralph

[bman]

If you are hitting long, think about snapping down. If you are hitting in the net, think about hitting up. I use the phrase reach up to snap down.

[johnyandell]

Ralph,

I like your description.

[tennisplayer]

The feeling has to be one of hitting up, I believe. The racquet face may be facing down a little, but it should be moving up (even if just a little bit) during contact. Otherwise, there will not be any topspin, and we know even first serves have some topspin (along with side spin).