The two handed forehand...and Pancho Segura

[bottle]

Do you have a picture of the Estonian?

[stotty]

Post 15 by don_budge

Post 15 by don budge is interesting.

An elderly coach (now deceased, and whose first instruction to beginners was to "hold the racket at the thin end") at my club would get all his students to first learn a two-handed forehand. He encouraged this with both adults and young children to stop the 'helicopter' backswing, since a big backswing is difficult to achieve, and unnecessary, when using two hands. With stubborn cases he would have students put their dominant hand at the bottom of the handle (Segura's is on top) to make a 'helicopter' backswing impossible (a player simply CANNOT get beyond the plane of the body this way). He liked to ensure compactness. This old coach was derided during his lifetime for his method of teaching forehands, but he carried on all the same. I do like a man with unswerving belief. He certainly had my respect (which would've meant little as he never liked me), but he lives on in the memory of others as a fruitcake. Shame.

The same coach also first taught students a two-handed forehand volley. He felt students from the outset would learn to use their non-dominant side this way.

A lot of his students are still around and playing today. Two never gave up their two-handed forehands, the rest released at a later stage and became one-handers; which was the plan all along. None of them, and they range in standard, have weak forehands in relation to their level of play. In fact they all strongly favour their forehands. They all have solid forehands with compact backswings. It seems what was intended by the coach, did transpire.

It was sad this coach was derided during his lifetime, because he built forehands at least as good if not better than all the other local coaches. And lest we forget, we are most of us exclusively coaching local talent only, where 'quirkiness' is acceptable and can even work darn well.

[don_budge]

Pancho Segura...three sigma and fruitcakes.

This is a fascinating thread...if I do say so myself. Thanks for the great contributions and help in getting this business out. It was a bit of a struggle...lost my train of thought.

But one of the truly great things about this website...this forum, is that people are genuinely interested in improving themselves. Expanding their horizons...in a purely esoteric sense. Let’s face it...only a small number of people on this planet are truly concerned with how to hit a tennis ball.

But just look at this video of the Pancho Segura two-handed forehand. What a tale it tells...about how to hit a tennis ball.

• the first thing that he does is to turn his shoulders and as he turns his shoulders with his right elbow anchoring his backswing the racquet goes back in a capital “C” shape with the head of his racquet at face level.
  
  
• at the two second mark in the video his left hand is just beginning to close on the racquet and the racquet is nearly back into position...I love the way he is flexing his fingers on the racquet with the “twitch” that the author of the article suggests.
  
  
• pancho...or francisco as his mother called him...creates the classic three lines as he aligns himself to the ball to strike. he has actually retreated somewhat to retrieve this shot but he digs in with his back foot, fully rotates his shoulders until his front shoulder is pointing at the incoming ball.
  
  
• from charlie lau (i am surmising here as i haven't read a word of it)...the laws of swinging anything with two hands...you see that because he has created the three lines in the preparation to swing (in his stance if you will) his hips make a subtle rotation followed by the shoulders and the arms and hands follow to finally deliver the racquet head to the ball with a resounding thwack.
  
  
• look at the high follow through...what appears to be a rather flat swing is actually a swing that will definitely impart some topspin to the ball. but spin is an all important factor to this ball...without the topspin control will diminish.
  
  
• even though he has retreated backwards to take this ball and to get in optimum position to strike...he is advancing to the net as a result of his splendid weight transfer and the fact that he has probably laced this ball down the line...inches down the line and his opponent has probably retrieved one of his low angled cross courts on the preceding shot. he is in position to do some mopping up.

A picture is worth a thousand words...a video how many? Enough.

A twelve second lesson in how to hit a perfect two-handed forehand. Sometimes its best to learn just by watching...and try to take things it in. After all, who else is going to teach you this shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMkIt2_xucs

In this next clip you get virtually the same image only this time Segura is in his prime and his move to the ball has all of the poise of one mean, lean predatory cat. His move into this ball is so confident and clean in the strike you can well imagine what it was like to face him in his prime. Low and hard to the opponents strength opening up options. Reminds me of Djokovic vs. Nadal a bit. Segura could reach any part of the court with the same compact motion. It had to be a devil to read such a shot.

Here is a somewhat younger Pancho Segura lacing a flat low trajectory angled forehand at about the 25 second mark in the clip. There's another guy of interest too in the clip. I will give you a clue...the initials are DB.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/professional-tennis-tournament/query/segura

Disconcertingly pretty...what did you think of that description bottle. I hope to post some video as her swing is starting to morph into something Seguraesque. Of course I will have to get permission first and everyone knows how shy and modest Estonian women are...part of the charm. Can you post from an Iphone or does it have to be from youtube.

You really have something going on there John with your tangent with the baseball swing. Swinging anything is accomplished by using both sides of the body...one must be engaged with the left as well as the right. It pays to be engaged with both sides of the brain as well...but that is another story. Or is it?

Do you have a picture of the Estonian?

Perhaps his reputation as a fruitcake had something other to do than with his two-handed forehand teachings. I think that the idea of volleying two-handed is a valid approach as a teaching model also. You have to like those that are willing to deviate from the norm. That is why there are at least three standard deviations from the norm until you are officially “out-of-control”. It’s a fine line these days...if you want to be politically correct you see. A little imagination can get you blacklisted as some kind of pariah. Now that is a shame.

An elderly coach (now deceased, and whose first instruction to beginners was to "hold the racket at the thin end") at my club would get all his students to first learn a two-handed forehand.

This old coach was derided during his lifetime for his method of teaching forehands, but he carried on all the same. I do like a man with unswerving belief. He certainly had my respect (which would've meant little as he never liked me), but he lives on in the memory of others as a fruitcake. Shame.

The same coach also first taught students a two-handed forehand volley. He felt students from the outset would learn to use their non-dominant side this way.

I have a little surprise coming for all of you soon. A true traditional tennis gift...to all!

[don_budge]

Concept to reality...

Well, this is a different swing here in which we wish to siphon off just a bit of the magic of modern home run effort. The hips under head, exquisitely centered between both feet, are building up steam for a slamming on of brakes to stop the whirl but provide great momentum leading to front hip and head in perfect balance over the front foot.

The brake is provided by stiffening front leg. So the hips have whirled early while in central position and then stopped whirling as they pushed onto the front foot thus completing the weight transfer or crossing of a bridge.

Could one have previously balanced weight back on rear foot by lifting front knee and front foot off of the ground in the manner of some coiling big league batters? One could. But should one? Once or twice for show.

The swing as a concept...

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/pr...t/query/segura 25 seconds into video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMkIt2_xucs

From idea to engagement...

[don_budge]

The Estonian Beauty...and the forehand.

For private reasons of my own I have become curious about the two handed forehand...so I looked it up. I found this interesting article. bottle...throw this one into your bag of tricks.

I'll tell you why...shortly.

http://corfutennis.wordpress.com/201...s-peculiarity/

Interesting nine minute video on teaching the forehand. Brilliantly simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2UdzaV9HQ&feature=related

1. Catch ball and throw back to instructor with follow through position.

2. Student to hit back ball to instructor with hand using follow through position.

3. With racquet, index finger inside throat of racquet.

4. Push ball over net with racquet to instructor, with finish in follow through position.

5. To hit right, angle racquet right. To hit left, angle racquet left.

6. Stroke ball while moving backwards and forwards...for arm independency.

7. Stroke ball while moving backwards and forwards...while aiming for instructors hand.

8. For rhythm...count to five with the bounce of the ball on count of one.

9. For footwork...walking around the cone and holding follow through position while walking back into position.

10. Gentle rallying.

"Simplicity makes it powerful." -Oscar Wegner

What a beautiful thread this turned out to be! Oscar Wegner on the forehand from scratch. Great discussion...John Yandell’s post #8 was a beauty as was gsheiner’s #14. Lost of valuable discussion here...about this that and another thing. All related to forehand technique.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1974&highlight=oscar+wegner+forehand+scratch

Then there was this little pearl from tennis_chiro...about training wheels.

Sometimes when a kid is learning to ride a bike, their parents put training wheels on the bike to assist them with balance and avoid losing their balance. If the kid stays in balance the training wheels have little effect, and the child can develop some feel for balance; but the child can't ride as freely as without the training wheels; the training wheels keep the rider in balance at the extremes. When the child learns a little better balance, the training wheels are removed, but the rider still has to stay in balance; the penalty for losing that balance is a little greater; instead of just bumping against the restriction of the training wheels, they might actually fall down.


don

Teaching tennis a mixed bag. Why is that? Because the object of the game in teaching tennis is teach sound fundamentals. Coaching tennis is another thing...the competition aspect of tennis delves into the psyche and spirit very deeply.

But here is the trail. First I encountered a student...the Estonian Beauty...whose technique was beyond comprehension. She was hitting the roof with the orange balls that were throw to her like little orange fluff cupcakes. The maze that one must go through sometimes. But it’s worth it...preferably if the student is paying. But sometimes the payoff is not about cash. It’s about spreading the love...the love of tennis.

Her backhand wasn’t so bad...it complimented her comely appearances. I looked in the internet for a two handed forehand to match the forehand and came across the wonderful article that explained in detail the changing of the grips etc. Stotty chipped in with the wonderful video of this eclectic forehand and it was game on. Using two hands was much like putting a cast on the broken arm...then later the cast morphed into a set of training wheels much like tennis_chiro explained.

After four months...the cast came off. We started from scratch...back to the green balls and the Oscar Wegner method. The forehand from scratch...starting at bullet point #3. Butt of racquet attached to the navel. Simplicity. Within one hour she had a free swinging one handed forehand. It was unbelievable! She thinks that she owes me for life. A real sense of gratitude. A miracle! Not only that but at the end of the hour we began to delve deeper into the one handed backhand via Oscar Weger from scratch. More white light!

Four months of work. Lots and lots of private training. Lots of group training. Finally yesterday...the cast came off. The training wheels were removed. Voila! The Estonian Beauty and the forehand. What a beautiful story.

[don_budge]

The Estonian Beauty...and the forehand.

It's like an old stripper that has beads or something...Jiminy Glick to John McEnroe

You have these temper tantrums...is this a publicist's idea or do you really have mental problems...Jiminy Glick to John McEnroe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW0gQ2dP2aI

For private reasons of my own I have become curious about the two handed forehand...so I looked it up. I found this interesting article. bottle...throw this one into your bag of tricks.

I'll tell you why...shortly.

http://corfutennis.wordpress.com/201...s-peculiarity/

Interesting nine minute video on teaching the forehand. Brilliantly simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2UdzaV9HQ&feature=related

1. Catch ball and throw back to instructor with follow through position.

2. Student to hit back ball to instructor with hand using follow through position.

3. With racquet, index finger inside throat of racquet.

4. Push ball over net with racquet to instructor, with finish in follow through position.

5. To hit right, angle racquet right. To hit left, angle racquet left.

6. Stroke ball while moving backwards and forwards...for arm independency.

7. Stroke ball while moving backwards and forwards...while aiming for instructors hand.

8. For rhythm...count to five with the bounce of the ball on count of one.

9. For footwork...walking around the cone and holding follow through position while walking back into position.

10. Gentle rallying.

"Simplicity makes it powerful." -Oscar Wegner

What a beautiful thread this turned out to be! Great discussion...John Yandell’s post #8 was a beauty as was gsheiner’s #14. bottle chiming in. Lots of valuable discussion here...about this that and another thing. All related to forehand technique.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1974&highlight=oscar+wegner+forehand+scratch

Bman,

One of Oscar's big things is play like the pros. One of my main disagreements is to what extent this is possible, which I think varies with level.

On a technical level, a lot of what he describes I don't think matches the actual technical components of pro strokes. The stalking thing for example, or the up and over at the expense of extension. I think you need both.

Or the insistance on open stance. Or the single model for the two hander when there are several configurations. Or the idea that the pros try to hit below the center of the sweet spot.

The other issues of course are his claims to world grandeur. Recently one of our writers was in Spain for a book he is working on. Let's just say the Spanish coaches have all either never heard of him, or have a different opinion regarding his influence. There are similar problems with his claims about working with Guga and his influence in South America. It doesn't reflect well on his credibility.

If you ever visit the tenniswarehouse message boards you will find he has a cadre of advocates who are not interested in critical debate and shout down anyone who challenges him. Some say the approach is similar to scientology of which he is a member.

There is some good stuff in what he does obviously and I am sure it's had value to many coaches. I just happen to have a different viewpoint on a lot of it.

I'll throw in my 2 cents about the wegner method. I purchased Oscar's material a few years ago as I started to really get into technique. Of course, I was reading the material on this site and others and was aware of the arguments going back and forth.

Although I could certainly hit nice topspin with the Wegner method, I wasn't happy with the penetration of my shots. For the past 9 months I've been focusing on 2 things which have helped my forehand and backhand tremendously.

Drum roll...

1. I've really been focusing on getting a really good upper body rotation with a significant angle between the upper body and lower body. Doing this enables me to get back to the ball with my core and not have to use my arm as much.

2. Extension, extension, extension --but within the context of core rotation. So, the core rotation never stops but at contact I try to extend the hitting arm structure as much as possible. Also, I try to keep my head fixed as possible on the contact point after contact since lifting the head ruins the stroke for me.


I can finish many different ways and don't find that the finish is the difficult part of the stroke.

The concept of extension has also really helped with my first volleys.

Where it gets tricky is the use of the biceps from contact on. I know that there is disagreement about this. From looking at video, it seems that the top players sometimes use their biceps and sometimes don't depending on what they're trying to do.

And, in general I wopuld think it would be easier to take a lansdorp strudent and get them to hit with more top, than take an oscar student and teach them to hit with more penetration.

Glenn

Then there was this little pearl from tennis_chiro...about training wheels. Brilliant!

Sometimes when a kid is learning to ride a bike, their parents put training wheels on the bike to assist them with balance and avoid losing their balance. If the kid stays in balance the training wheels have little effect, and the child can develop some feel for balance; but the child can't ride as freely as without the training wheels; the training wheels keep the rider in balance at the extremes. When the child learns a little better balance, the training wheels are removed, but the rider still has to stay in balance; the penalty for losing that balance is a little greater; instead of just bumping against the restriction of the training wheels, they might actually fall down.


don

Teaching tennis a mixed bag. Why is that? Because the object of the game in teaching tennis is teach sound fundamentals. Coaching tennis is another thing...the competition aspect of tennis delves into the psyche and spirit very deeply. Each student is a mixed bag...it is human nature.

But here is the trail. First I encountered a student...the Estonian Beauty...whose technique was beyond comprehension. She was hitting the roof with the orange balls that were throw to her like little orange fluff cupcakes. The maze that one must go through sometimes. But it’s worth it...preferably if the student is paying. But sometimes the payoff is not about cash. It’s about spreading the love...the love of tennis.

Her backhand wasn’t so bad...it complimented her comely appearances. I looked in the internet for a two handed forehand to match the forehand and came across the wonderful article that explained in detail the changing of the grips etc. Stotty chipped in with the wonderful video of this eclectic forehand and it was game on. Using two hands was much like putting a cast on the broken arm...then later the cast morphed into a set of training wheels much like tennis_chiro explained.

After four months...the cast came off. We started from scratch...back to the green balls and the Oscar Wegner method. The forehand from scratch...starting at bullet point #3. Butt of racquet attached to the navel. Simplicity. Within one hour she had a free swinging one handed forehand. It was unbelievable! She thinks that she owes me for life. A real sense of gratitude. A miracle! Not only that but at the end of the hour we began to delve deeper into the one handed backhand via Oscar Weger from scratch. More white light!

Four months of work. Lots and lots of private training. Lots of group training. Finally yesterday...the cast came off. The training wheels were removed. Voila! The Estonian Beauty and The Forehand. What a beautiful story. Eyes like pools of liquid azure...blue as the Swedish sky absent of clouds.

She looked at me and said..."I think that I understand it now." Have you ever heard English spoken with an Estonian/Swedish accent? I can assure you it is quite charming. Something like out of an old Sean Connery "James Bond" film.

[don_budge]

To Francisco...I dedicate this to you. God bless you...and thank you.