The two handed forehand...and Pancho Segura

[don_budge]

For private reasons of my own I have become curious about the two handed forehand...so I looked it up. I found this interesting article. bottle...throw this one into your bag of tricks.

I'll tell you why...shortly.

http://corfutennis.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/pancho-segura-a-tennis-peculiarity/

[don_budge]

Oscar Wegner on the two Handed backhand from scratch

So here is Oscar Wegner on the two handed backhand from scratch...to continue my thought. From the Pancho Segura two handed forehand to the Oscar Wegner two handed backhand from scratch...connecting the dots.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1972:cool:

[don_budge]

Oscar Wegner on the Two Handed backhand from scratch...

Interesting little five minute video on how to teach the two hand backhand. Brilliantly simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZu4zD9bMNw

Brief summary:

1. Catch ball underhanded with the left hand.

2. Throw back ball to teacher with the follow through of the throw to other side of opposite cheek.

3. Grip racquet with index finger of the left hand through the throat of the racquet.

4. With both hands on the racquet practice lifting the racquet to the same position where the left hand followed through to the opposite side of the cheek.

5. For emphasis of left hand dominance put the right hand behind the back.

6. Using left hand lift racquet into ball.

7. Using both hands lift racquet into ball.

8. Alternate using one hand and two hands.

9. Feed balls to student walking backwards and forwards.

10. Feeding a ball with student turning back to starting point with racquet held over the shoulder after the hit, then returning the racquet to the belly button for the beginning position.

"Simplicity makes it powerful." -Oscar Wegner

Repost to illustrate a coming point...

[don_budge]

Backswings...Dr. Watson

A thread entitled "Backswings" initiated by our Sherlock Holmes in Great Britain...or shall I say Dr. Watson. One of my favorite discussions from the forum.

Backswings...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1945

Connecting the dots, the three little dots...synthesizing...Pancho Segura two hand forehand...Oscar Wegner two handed backhand from scratch...licensedcoach "Backswings".

[don_budge]

Post #2 from "Backswings" thread...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/martina_hingis/mh_forehand/mh_fh_center/mh_fh_center.html?MHFHCenterFront2.mov

An unstable forehand vs. a stable backhand...Why???
Let me preface my comments with this...this is a very impressive and talented girl for the age of eight. That being said let’s examine the problem which appears to be that the forehand is less reliable than the backhand. So the question is...what is it about her forehand technique (backswing) that makes it less stable? If we can identify this, then how do we correct the problem to stabilize the stroke?

With respect to Dyna’s (short for dynamo) forehand there is one aspect of it that I truly like and it just so happens that it is the most critical part of the stroke, in my opinion. I am referring to her “get in position” position...after the backswing and before the forward swing. Without consideration about what has happened before this point in her swing and about what happens afterwards, this is a truly well balanced and dynamic position to be in as she makes her move to the ball. I like the position of her racquet, shoulders and feet. She is in a nice sitting (derriere out, upper body leaning forward) position for balance as well.

While I genuinely admire her position at the point of “get in position” there are some real issues going on before and after...and it is these issues that are probably contributing to her instability and unreliability on her forehand side. Fortunately the issues have some fairly simple remedies...simplify the motion.

OK...let’s try to sort this thing out. From her ready position I think if you dial her grip back just a bit she will be in a better position to initiate her backswing, but I don’t feel this is a big factor at this point. Her problem and instability is in the manner in which she takes her racquet back to “get in position”...and the surprising result of all of her extra rigamarole is that she actually gets herself into perfect position in the video. But of course the ball is being perfectly fed to her each time so that she can perform this miraculous backswing without throwing herself off balance or tying herself into a knot as she begins to unwind going forward.

So...what exactly is she doing? It looks like she initiates her forehand backswing with a lift of both her right hand and the racquet head. Her right hand almost appears to be making a service toss motion...it looks as if you could balance a pizza on it throughout the entire swing. Her left elbow makes a rather large arch before finally settling into position to go forward as well. Too much unnecessary movement that contributes nothing of a positive nature in terms of energy to the ball via her swinging racquet.

Instead of lifting the hand and racquet...I recommend that she push the head of her racquet directly back into position to make her swing. Martina Hingus and Roger Federer both initiate the backswing on the forehand with what appears to be a subtle push with the free hand and at the same time they use their shoulders to accomplish a full unit turn...the racquet arm elbows are relatively stationary and stay relatively close to their bodies. Their wrists are almost immediately in position as they begin their turn to the ball and their wrists will stay in this position until they are in position to go forward with the racquet. Both Hingus and Federer have their racquets in an “L” position in their backswing practically from their ready position to their “get in position”. Notice that neither of them are lifting the racquet head any higher than their head and their right hands are basically waist high throughout their backswing. The height of the backswing may change with the height of the ball to be played but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the backswing has to get bigger...only higher or lower.

The little Dyna has all kinds of funny business going on with her lifting approach to her backswing and one of the most unstable aspects of her backswing is that the racquet head is lagging so far behind her hand and her shoulders that the timing must be awfully good when she transitions to going forward. She makes all of the necessary compensations quite nicely when she is standing in one spot but if she is being moved around the court...it looks as if the foundation of such a backswing might become very shaky if out of position. With the head of her racquet so high in the air if she has any kind of thinking opponent (do eight year olds think tactically?) on the other side of the net they might be looking to exploit such a swing with low balls or short balls.

The best backswings have an ample enough motion backwards in order to generate the most energy going forwards. You don’t hit anything with the backswing. You must get her backswing under control, perhaps in a nice “L” position, so that she can get into her nice “get in position” position so that her forehand “is repeatable under the vast number of possibilities and conditions that a tennis player is due to play their shots”. For a swing to be repeatable the tolerances in the variation are tight and they seem to get even tighter in a close match when nerves get tight and perhaps a little bit of fear creeps into the swing. Statistically speaking you would be well advised to get her to tighten up her three sigma control limits...in order that she can repeat her backswing under any circumstances. Her current method is pretty wild and could easily veer out of control if she is even a bit off balance. Minimize motion to maximize control.

The reason that I asked for a look on the backhand side is because I like to see some commonality in all of a tennis players backswing tendencies. Dyna’s backswing on the backhand is pretty much straight back and straight through. Less can go wrong with such a simple technique and this is probably why she is more stable on the backhand side. It looks complementary if both the forehand and the backhand tend to match. It may make it easier for her if she was to modify both sides to share some similarities on both sides...get her into a modified “L” take away on both sides.

If there is a consistency between all of the backswings in a player’s game, perhaps it is even possible that the tendency to repeat the same motion will have a philosophical grounding eventually as well...an inner rhythm. If a player can relate to sound fundamentals every time they take their racquet back in preparation for a shot...so much the better. A good example of this is the manner in which Federer produces drop shots...his backswing on the forehand looks pretty much the same as his normal full swing and then all of a sudden he is merely passing the racquet head under the ball with a deft touch. His backswing for a forehand volley looks very similar to the initial move he makes in preparation for a groundstroke. Federer’s and Hingus’s backswings look like they share some real similarities throughout their whole respective repertoire of shots.

To prepare little Dyna for a change in weakening her grip somewhat, it may help to get her to practice taking a lot of balls in the air...volleys. I recommend also giving her a lot of practice in the middle of the court and try to encourage her to use a volley like stroke on these balls as well...perhaps practicing for a future net approach game. Teach her to hit under spin from an “L” backswing position...Federer/Hingus style.

One drill that I like to use with a more accomplished player is to have them start on the baseline and using one ball try to do the following without missing, hit a ball and advance forward, hit another ball in the mid-court (either volley or half volley) then advancing to the net to hit a volley or two, then immediately back up into position to hit another mid-court ball then moving backwards to finally hit another ball behind the baseline then immediately going forwards again on the next ball to repeat the process. It’s good to practice moving forwards and backwards as well as to practice moving side to side. This drill is also about the backswing...behind the baseline it is a full backswing and as one moves forward closer to the net the backswing gets shorter and shorter until you are finally at the net, volleying with very little backswing at all. But even with the difference in the length of the backswings there should be some resemblance between all of them.

Your young Dyna shows something very special in her “get in position” position and her ball sense...Stotty. For an eight year old she has fantastic dynamics and it looks like you had a lot to do with that...nice work! You may create more stability in her swing with a modified "L" backswing which will put her in a better position to go forward. But then we must talk about her foot work and her weight transfer. It sounds like a long story...but she is so young and there is plenty of time...it's a lifetime endeavor.

[don_budge]

Shaping forehands...another thread started by licensedcoach

The shape of the forehand...from Pancho Segura...to Oscar Wegner...to Backswings...to The Shape of the Forehand.

Another really good discussion about the forehand stroke.

Shaping Forehands...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2116

[stotty]

Interesting to go back and forth to the threads don_budge has re-posted and view the input from don_budge and others. I've learnt a lot more about coaching since I've become an avid poster on the forum. All those things I didn't know at the time of posting the threads...and do know now for having posted them...terrific. What great knowledge I have come away with over the years.

Pancho Segura...fascinating player. He got the better of Lew Hoad most of the time so he must have been deceptively good. I have read the Pancho article about his grips but will read it again before I comment...it's a chunk to take in.

Some two-handed forehand players put their dominant hand above the other on the grip, like Pancho and Gene Mayer. Others such as Seles have the dominant hand beneath their other hand. I always think Seles's way is like have two backhands. Pancho's way would seem to give much less reach?

[stotty]

Segura

See 4:28 on the clip pasted below. It's probably the only clear view you will ever see of Segura loading his grips for his two-handed forehand. Players like Segura are lost forever when it comes to quality footage. I cannot tell you how much that breaks my heart...that a player this good cannot be clearly viewed for study. If only I had an HG Wells time machine...

[don_budge]

Weird Scenes Inside the Gold Mine...The Doors

Interesting to go back and forth to the threads don_budge has re-posted and view the input from don_budge and others. I've learnt a lot more about coaching since I've become an avid poster on the forum. All those things I didn't know at the time of posting the threads...and do know now for having posted them...terrific. What great knowledge I have come away with over the years.

Pancho Segura...fascinating player.

Yes it is interesting my friend from the UK...The United Kingdom. You once said to me in an email that you thought that I was voicing all of my writing as if I was sorting it out in my own mind...as if to learn from my thoughts as well as others. Well...you said something to that effect...in my own words.

It has been a fascinating discussion. This world of tennis. This infinite world played out in a finite space between the lines of the tennis court. But don't forget that those lines extend upwards as well. Did you know that the true art of conversation is not so much having all of the right answers but having the acumen to know when to ask the right question?

My goodness...I cannot believe what I have written sometimes. Just to sit down and read what others have to say and to think it through critically and come up with a response. I have found that you of anyone on the forum throw out the most intriguing thoughts to ponder upon. It amazed me sometimes what happens to my noodle in this forum.

Express yourself! Thanks for the wonderful conversations everyone. This particular one..."the Segura forehand", "the Backswing" and "The Shape of the Forehand" all led to an amazing epiphany to me when I was trying to teach a rather interesting student on how to hit a forehand. Right now I am trying to synthesis my thoughts in order to meaningfully communicate to my friends and fellow tennis teachers here about this process that I went through in order to get this through to my student.

You know...that the challenge of teaching the game of tennis is extremely complex. Every student is different. How do you reach them? How do you get them to engage with you...as well as you engaging with them? This word engagement has taken on a new meaning for me ever since that certain someone brought up that term..."connectivity". And me...always trying to connect those infernal three little dots. It could drive you mad sometimes...but then you are saved...by the white light... from deep inside the Gold Mine.

How I wish too that there was something that we could see about the amazing two hand forehand of Pancho Segura. Perhaps somewhere there exists that footage but it just hasn't been youtube'd yet. I wish that it will be...I wish that it will be. But that verbal description in the article must serve for now. So we must engage with the printed word in order to come up with a picture in our mind...in our imagination. It's very good you know...I must read it again. And again. I must read it several more times. To get it down...in my noodle. Sorting out. I'm synthesizing...not merely parroting. Not merely mimicking. If only in my dreams. I'm creating pictures. Thank you Lord.

To synthesize...in Hegelian philosophy...the final stage in the process of dialectical reasoning, in which a new idea resolves the conflict between thesis and antithesis.

Pancho Segura...a tennis peculiarity. Self taught...he dared to be different.

http://corfutennis.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/pancho-segura-a-tennis-peculiarity/

...and tennis is such a fascinating game.

[stotty]

The two handed forehand.

A twelve second lesson in how to hit a perfect two-handed forehand. Sometimes its best to learn just by watching...and try to take things it in. After all, who else is going to teach you this shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMkIt2_xucs

[tennis_chiro]

A twelve second lesson in how to hit a perfect two-handed forehand. Sometimes its best to learn just by watching...and try to take things it in. After all, who else is going to teach you this shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMkIt2_xucs

Of course the ball is hit almost flat and there is little closure of the racket face in the backswing, but there is definitely an SSC just before the racket goes forward to the impact. Pretty nice ATP backswing except for the square face.

Nice find, Stotty!

don

[julian1]

Ssc

Of course the ball is hit almost flat and there is little closure of the racket face in the backswing, but there is definitely an SSC just before the racket goes forward to the impact. Pretty nice ATP backswing except for the square face.

Nice find, Stotty!

don

Don,
what are indicators of a SSC?

[bottle]

Amazing, Rip, to see this great forehand, finally, and so well. Or should I say one thinks one sees it well.

Thanks, Steve, also, for the moving article with the dark background. The thousand points of light are bits of Peggy Noonan descending or should I say people's general expectations as they realize that not only can they not hit the Seguran shot but the atmosphere in which they are trying to live is filling with methane gas one hundred times worse than carbon dioxide, that even at this very moment there are growing patches of polar ocean seething with carbonation-- I mean methanization (observed!)-- like shaken up bottles of champagne one mile across.

Happy New Year!

I'm sure I've tried to hit this great forehand, with far less information available, at one or two times in my tennis career. And am tempted to try again, which means I will, but for right now the Escher labs are filled with alternate experiment toward any possible application of the two hand one hand backhands of CHARLEY LAU'S LAWS ON HITTING.

In those tennis shots used for all field hitting, higher batting average, and a vast increase of home runs, one pulls on the knob with no push or rollover whatsoever-- probably never ever but if so only at the very end after the ball is long gone.

Well, I'll write about this plan for adapted Lau soon at A NEW YEAR'S SERVE and actually will try something along these lines down the line without further thought or actual trial or practice of any kind at a tennis social tonight. Hint: The roofy followthrough and even before followthrough shall be pure Petr Korda.

[johnyandell]

Great find!

[don_budge]

Nice work! licensedcoach, tennis_chiro and bottle...

The article is particularly brilliant. The description of the grip along with some related commentary about gripping the racquet were grippingly enlightening. It reads with the intelligence of a peer reviewed research paper without the pomp and circumstance that most research papers read like...particularly when they are written about artistic subjects. They remind me of a postcard by Ashely Brilliant that read..."let's organize this thing and take all of the fun out of it". Peculiar indeed! Segura peculiar? How about...what is that bottleesque term...quirky?

For private reasons of my own I have become curious about the two handed forehand...so I looked it up. I found this interesting article. bottle...throw this one into your bag of tricks.

I'll tell you why...shortly.

http://corfutennis.wordpress.com/201...s-peculiarity/

Sensational find licensedcoach!!!

A twelve second lesson in how to hit a perfect two-handed forehand. Sometimes its best to learn just by watching...and try to take things it in. After all, who else is going to teach you this shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMkIt2_xucs

Brilliant observation...tennis_chiro!

Of course the ball is hit almost flat and there is little closure of the racket face in the backswing, but there is definitely an SSC just before the racket goes forward to the impact. Pretty nice ATP backswing except for the square face.

Nice find, Stotty!

don

What does one say...about bottle? How about...what a sentence!

Thanks, Steve, also, for the moving article with the dark background. The thousand points of light are bits of Peggy Noonan descending or should I say people's general expectations as they realize that not only can they not hit the Seguran shot but the atmosphere in which they are trying to live is filling with methane gas one hundred times worse than carbon dioxide, that even at this very moment there are growing patches of polar ocean seething with carbonation-- I mean methanization (observed!)-- like shaken up bottles of champagne one mile across.

Here is a somewhat younger Pancho Segura lacing a flat low trajectory angled forehand at about the 25 second mark in the clip. There's another guy of interest too in the clip. I will give you a clue...the initials are DB.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/professional-tennis-tournament/query/segura

Being able to hit this low, hard and angled forehand to an opponents stronger side presented some real problems tactically speaking. Being pulled off of the court at such an angle now the opponent is faced with trying to attack the backhand of Segura, which if not totally successful is going to find himself looking at scurrying the whole width of the court trying to flag down the crosscourt return and then the real trouble begins...the toying and the torture.

This is pointed out in the article as the author points out that once Segura had pulled his opponent off of the court he liked to toy with his opponent from there on out with the whole gamut of options...including lobndropshot's namesake tactic. One can imagine what a devastating weapon it was...it brings to mind Fabrice Santoro recently whose opponents had a tough time drawing a bead on as well.

But I love tennis_chiro's observation about the backswing. This was my whole point in bringing this shot up in the first place. I encountered a beginner student who's unbelievable disconnect with her forehand side was rather disconcerting. Plus she is disconcertingly pretty. Trust me...any rational or sane tennis professional would have been scratching their heads trying to unravel this puzzle from Estonia. But I saw something on the backhand side that was not all that bad so I figured why not borrow from the backhand and give to the forehand. Thus the impetus for the two handed forehand. Motivated by the puzzle from Estonia I searched the internet for the Segurian Forehand and came up with article. You know...sometimes words can paint just as clear a picture as an actual picture can.

Amazing results...it almost led me to believe that I should train all of my beginning youngsters to use two handed forehands as it immediately naturally gives shape to the forehand side as tennis_chiro observed...a pretty darn natural "ATP" like backswing. A real capital "C" shape if you will. bottle's current fascination of baseball swings incorporated into tennis swings is very valid as well. No matter if you are swinging the racquet with one hand or two you must use both sides of your body or run the risk of swinging all arm. All true swings are two handed...baseball, golf etc. One handed swings such as the forehand are almost an underhanded or sidearmed throwing motion.

Do you see any "ATP" forehand elements in this throwing motion? See how the left hand is engaged with the turning shoulders. SSC in the throwing wrist? So much for the discovery process. Sort of like Columbus discovering America...or black or brown guys in the jungle or in the mountains reinventing the wheel every year since the beginning of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK_EHyxHLJU

Putting two hands on the racquet for the forehand accomplishes some rather nice fundamental aspects to a forehand swing that is in the process of being developed as far as I am concerned. Number one as mentioned it engages the "other" side of the body and for a right handed player it gets the left hand where it belongs...in front of the body. It turns the shoulders. Number two classical footwork is encouraged thus a proper weight transfer. Number three it helps to shape the all important backswing. Just look at Pancho create the three lines of shoulders, racquet and feet into his get in position...position.

Once my student got all of her ducks in a row she seems to be dropping the two handed stroke in preference to the conventional one hand forehand. The forehand looks very normal now for a beginners forehand but I want her to develop the two handed forehand as I feel that it will create some real problems eventually for her opponents at the level that she will be playing. Low and hard to the opponents forehand leaving them the crosscourt possibility that they will face the prospect of covering the entire width of the court for their next shot.

As an addendum to her two hand forehand stroke I would like to point out that I have spent time on her developing one handed strokes on both sides as well as the two hand strokes. In particular I am developing the underspin on the backhand volley and working back towards the baseline in developing the underspin backhand. She is also getting a lot of equal training at the net and approaching the net. This has been one of my most creative teaching projects and it is an example that I am eagerly looking for the suitable junior to pattern it after. Maybe it will be her left-handed son. Who knows?

So much emphasis is put entirely on the professional game that there is so much tennis that is being overlooked and discarded as obsolete. I am not so certain about this current paradigm...I feel that I want to reject it by the sheer force of its own popularity and personality. I must admit by nature I tend to be sort of rebellious.

Big thanks to licensedcoach for the video...reigniting the imaginative process that one needs to relate to others here on the sacred forum. The Holy Grail indeed. Watching Pancho Segura grip his two hand forehand many times it looks to me that he is actually adding the second hand...the left hand almost at the end of the backswing. What poetry in motion! Which then leads me to the question...did Björn Borg actually use a two hand backhand or was it a one and a half hand backhand?