A forehand review article by Elliot

[don_budge]

A longitudinal examination...

What is "a longitudinal examination"?

A longitudinal examination...is the long and the short of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUwd737mioM

Too Much Information...The Police

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane

I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh
I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh

Overkill
Overview
Over my dead body
Over me
Over you
Over everybody

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane

I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh
I've seen the whole world six times over
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net ]
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane

I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh
I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh

Overkill
Overview
Over my dead body
Over me
Over you
Over everybody

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
(to fade)

By posting this song and lyrics...

I am expressing my love for The Police.

Sending out to klacr...because I know that he loves The Police.

I am spoofing julian1...because I love it when he posts from the scientific point of view. There were a couple of interesting points in the article...you had to dig a bit.

Because I have lost my mind from too much information. I found it again when I got on a need to know basis.

[klacr]

Good finds Julian1.

Articles are interesting and bring up some good facts and figures. It's a bit dry due to its scientific nature. It's a modern day miracle that I even know how to turn on my computer, so being able to trudge through research and get anything out of it is even better.

The chart showing comparisons of Federer-Falla on clay and grass were unique. I was expecting Federer to have more shots hit with a closed stance on grass but shows you what I know.

And yes, The Police were a great band. Too much information was written by Gordon Sumner (Sting) and appeared on the 1981 album "Ghost In The Machine".

After the clinical and robotic breakdown of the forehand stroke in these articles, perhaps there is another Police song from the same album that we need to think about..."Rehumanize Yourself"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xXbfNBtBQw

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[tennisplayer]

I understand (after some mind bending) the gist of Julian's post (#11), but how the heck would a coach use that information? I'm curious, because while it looks like there may be a holy grail hiding in there, I'm at a loss as to what I should do with all this information! I certainly hope it doesn't mean I have to start using my wrist more and do the radial thing as the article seems to suggest!

[bottle]

I'm with you. More from the shoulder is what I think.

[tennis_chiro]

What does the emg really mean?

I'm with you. More from the shoulder is what I think.

The data from the study says that the emg readings were higher in the shoulders of the players who were less effective in creating topspin on their forehands. The more effective players left their shoulder muscles relaxed. That doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of shoulder motion. If you are really developing your power in your legs and your core, the shoulder and arm are relatively relaxed as you whip them through the hitting zone. Try to muscle the shoulder muscles through there and you will only slow the racket head down.

That's the thought that should be meaningful for takeaway.

don

[julian1]

Verdasco

Verdasco hit a forehand with speed 117 miles per hour
Please see the very end part of the article

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/12/sports/tennis/djokovics-win-in-final-is-not-the-last-word.html?_r=0

[bottle]

Don:

Okay. I agree. But from reading Brian Gordon, a big factor in effectiveness of the shoulder contribution is length of the hitting arm-- more and more. Does the article even address the contrast of Federerian-Nadalian-Verdascoan arm with double-bend? Maybe it does but I haven't gotten that far. Because I'm still annoyed by the alphabet soup. And am pleased that other people are annoyed by any opacity-- they have every right!

Does news of the annoyance ever get back to these birds? Do they even care? Or would they say, "You peons simply don't have the background essential to a full understanding of my magnificent work!"

There are people like that in every specialized field. And then one day you face an endocrinologist (not for me but for a friend). The friend says, "We know what a good reputation you have." The doctor says, "Maybe that's because I'm still young." Already you know this is a good man, and as he continues with specifics of the case, something becomes apparent. This fellow is determined to communicate, to make an incredibly complex subject clear. He explains to my friend and then to me. And then her daughter, who coincidentally had a doctor's appointment next door, came in. And he explains to her too. Each explanation gets shorter and sharper and wittier because more closely focussed-- but something else is becoming clear too, that all is not lost.

And then there is a cancellation of the next appointment. So the doctor saves time by having his assistant wheel in the ultra-sound equipment so that now we didn't have to go to a hospital for that. Getting to see this man with reputation of Detroit's best took too long a time, but once you're in, his assistant has explained, you are in. And the doctor-endocrinologist notes my interest and wish to follow as the screen comes on and continues to explain everything though saving his explanation until after the important work. Amazing.

Thanks Don for explaining the article as much as you have-- my only knowledge of it. From what you say, I'm sure there's good stuff there and I'll circle back to it. But I love Steve's phrase about "need to know" knowledge, too. We really can-- often-- live without much of what is available.

Ralph Waldo Emerson on a lousy speech by his nephew which he went to hear: One needs to make the sale each and every time even if one had some kind of a success the time before. You and I as writers both know that we need to capture the reader's interest and had better do it early.

Note on Julian's citing of the straight-armed Verdasco's 117-mph forehand: Pretty good though I haven't followed the link to the Times' article yet. Stuff to do first, don't you know.

[julian1]

wrist extension vs wrist flex

I have couple very random thoughts on a subject of wrist extension vs wrist flexion for forehand.

There is a school of thinking saying that
1.we extend before a contact
2.we flex at the contact

Let us try to see some evidence for this subject

Please see two pictures presented at
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=482134 post#7

The LEFT picture presents Verdasco who was mentioned in post #21 of THIS THREAD.
We can compare this picture with the last frame before the contact of

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/fernando_verdasco/fv_forehand/fv_fh_center/fv_fh_center.html?FVFHCenterOpenStanceFront1.mov

See
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=482134 post #3
for the opinion on this subject.

Switching gears:
Elliot writes:
This highlights the important role of the wrist
in changing the racket’s trajectory and, presumably, the
effect imparted to the ball. In the opinion of the authors, it
also highlights a paradox of sorts, where the emphasis
placed on the role of the wrist in teaching the forehand
stroke seems inconsistent with the attention it has been
afforded (as compared to internal rotation and trunk rotation)
in the tennis biomechanics literature. To this end,
and as aforementioned, it can be difficult for coaches to
appreciate the role of the wrist in the context of the required
rotations at other joints. Nevertheless, there would
appear an opportunity for future research to evaluate wrist
joint motion in forehands played in response to balls of
varying speed.

Julian W.Mielniczuk
Bedford,MA,US

[julian1]

TWO papers

Don:

Okay. I agree. But from reading Brian Gordon, a big factor in effectiveness of the shoulder contribution is length of the hitting arm-- more and more. Does the article even address the contrast of Federerian-Nadalian-Verdascoan arm with double-bend? Maybe it does but I haven't gotten that far. Because I'm still annoyed by the alphabet soup. And am pleased that other people are annoyed by any opacity-- they have every right!

Does news of the annoyance ever get back to these birds? Do they even care? Or would they say, "You peons simply don't have the background essential to a full understanding of my magnificent work!"

There are people like that in every specialized field. And then one day you face an endocrinologist (not for me but for a friend). The friend says, "We know what a good reputation you have." The doctor says, "Maybe that's because I'm still young." Already you know this is a good man, and as he continues with specifics of the case, something becomes apparent. This fellow is determined to communicate, to make an incredibly complex subject clear. He explains to my friend and then to me. And then her daughter, who coincidentally had a doctor's appointment next door, came in. And he explains to her too. Each explanation gets shorter and sharper and wittier because more closely focussed-- but something else is becoming clear too, that all is not lost.

And then there is a cancellation of the next appointment. So the doctor saves time by having his assistant wheel in the ultra-sound equipment so that now we didn't have to go to a hospital for that. Getting to see this man with reputation of Detroit's best took too long a time, but once you're in, his assistant has explained, you are in. And the doctor-endocrinologist notes my interest and wish to follow as the screen comes on and continues to explain everything though saving his explanation until after the important work. Amazing.

Thanks Don for explaining the article as much as you have-- my only knowledge of it. From what you say, I'm sure there's good stuff there and I'll circle back to it. But I love Steve's phrase about "need to know" knowledge, too. We really can-- often-- live without much of what is available.

Ralph Waldo Emerson on a lousy speech by his nephew which he went to hear: One needs to make the sale each and every time even if one had some kind of a success the time before. You and I as writers both know that we need to capture the reader's interest and had better do it early.

Note on Julian's citing of the straight-armed Verdasco's 117-mph forehand: Pretty good though I haven't followed the link to the Times' article yet. Stuff to do first, don't you know.

Both papers quoted do address the related issue of wrist utilization.
I decided to put a separate post on this subject.
I apologize for interferring with your post for Don.

[julian1]

Using information by a coach

I understand (after some mind bending) the gist of Julian's post (#11), but how the heck would a coach use that information? I'm curious, because while it looks like there may be a holy grail hiding in there, I'm at a loss as to what I should do with all this information! I certainly hope it doesn't mean I have to start using my wrist more and do the radial thing as the article seems to suggest!

Hi,
post #23 is an attempt to address your question
"how the heck would a coach use that information? "
I will be more than happy to address your questions on this subject.
See as well
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=482134 post#3
Regards,
Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA

[julian1]

Good finds Julian1.

Articles are interesting and bring up some good facts and figures. It's a bit dry due to its scientific nature. It's a modern day miracle that I even know how to turn on my computer, so being able to trudge through research and get anything out of it is even better.

The chart showing comparisons of Federer-Falla on clay and grass were unique. I was expecting Federer to have more shots hit with a closed stance on grass but shows you what I know.

And yes, The Police were a great band. Too much information was written by Gordon Sumner (Sting) and appeared on the 1981 album "Ghost In The Machine".

After the clinical and robotic breakdown of the forehand stroke in these articles, perhaps there is another Police song from the same album that we need to think about..."Rehumanize Yourself"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xXbfNBtBQw

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Please see
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=482134 post#3

[10splayer]

Hi,
post #23 is an attempt to address your question
"how the heck would a coach use that information? "
I will be more than happy to address your questions on this subject.
See as well
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=482134 post#3
Regards,
Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA

Hi Julian,

Two points in response to the tennis wharehouse thread.

1. In my opinion, the amount of wrist extension, or not, has much more to do with out going shot line intent. You'll tend to see more extention with down the line shots, (with the most being on inside out shots) and less on crosscourt shots. (in more of a flexion state)
2.Contrary to most on this thread, I do think its a good find and has implications in teaching. Ulnar to radial movement (within the context of an overall movement of pronation, internal rotation etc) is an extremely important component to the vertical racquet head speed. I've mentioned this before, but in a more modern forehand, topspin is created more by this move, then by the lifting action (low to high path) of the arm. I've seen studies where on stock forehands, the low to high path is only upwards of 20 to 30 degrees. However, the wiping action is significant and accounts for much of the spin rates.

[bottle]

Give the author a prize then. And $100,000. And a banquet. Can I come, too?

Ulna to radius movement is important but not "extremely" so. More seminal is the partitioned spearing with the racket butt. Somebody reading this 10splayer post cold might think you mean that the puny muscles that cause ulna to radius deviation ought to generate big topspin.

Will see him at the hospital.

[julian1]

double handed backhand

Hi Julian,

Two points in response to the tennis wharehouse thread.

1. In my opinion, the amount of wrist extension, or not, has much more to do with out going shot line intent. You'll tend to see more extention with down the line shots, (with the most being on inside out shots) and less on crosscourt shots. (in more of a flexion state)
2.Contrary to most on this thread, I do think its a good find and has implications in teaching. Ulnar to radial movement (within the context of an overall movement of pronation, internal rotation etc) is an extremely important component to the vertical racquet head speed. I've mentioned this before, but in a more modern forehand, topspin is created more by this move, then by the lifting action (low to high path) of the arm. I've seen studies where on stock forehands, the low to high path is only upwards of 20 to 30 degrees. However, the wiping action is significant and accounts for much of the spin rates.

Thank you for your response.
Can we try to generalize for two handed backhand,please?
A down the line shot is "controlled" by a hand extension of a NON-DOMINANT hand.
A cross court shot is "controlled" by a wrist flexion of a NON-DOMINANT hand.
Am I getting too shallow?

[tennisplayer]

Hi,
post #23 is an attempt to address your question
"how the heck would a coach use that information? "
I will be more than happy to address your questions on this subject.
See as well
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=482134 post#3
Regards,
Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA

Thanks for the response, Julian. While post #23 is rife with possibilities, I am not sure how it helps... perhaps because the issues you are raising are part of an ongoing discovery process. Maybe you could just dispense with the details and just say what a player should do - like move the wrist from extended to flexed position during the course of a stroke, and/or deviate the wrist radially, etc.