A forehand review article by Elliot

[stroke]

Julian,

Can we agree (at least as it relates to a forehand tennis stroke) that in the forward swing, because the racquet is pulled butt cap first, the weight of the racquet head will produce an "extended" position with the wrist in the forward swing....If we can agree on that, then all we're talking about is how much, if any, the wrist move into flexion at impact... As I've mentioned before, this movement has a profound impact on the "start line" of shots.

This succinct post is pretty much the essence of the type 3 forehand.

[julian1]

Trends in Modern Double Handed Backhand

In terms of the position of the wrist ( flexion/extension) at impact, the important point to convey to a student is that it impacts shot direction more than racquet head speed. it's important for a player to develop a "feel' for where the racquet head is in space. Ill just stick with that.

10splayer,
A bit related

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248

[10splayer]

Hi,
If you have 2 wrists "working" for double fisted backand u can "afford" to have one of them flexed/extended and ONE of them LOCKED

Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA
Bedford,MA

PS Please see the quote below
---->
WRIST KINEMATICS DURING THE GOLF DRIVE FROM A BILATERALLY
ANATOMICAL PERSPECTIVE
Matthew Sweeney1,2, Peter Mills3, Aditi Mankad 2,4, Bruce Elliott2, Jacqueline
Alderson2
1 Australia Catholic University, Brisbane, Australia 2 University of Western
Australia, Perth, Australia. 3 Centre for Musculoskeletal Research, Griffith
Health Institute, Griffith University, Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia,
4CSIRO, Brisbane Australia
Despite the reported importance of the wrist ‘un-cocking’ measure in the golf swing, only
anecdotal evidence exists with respect to the three dimensional or bilateral nature of wrist
motion. Through the downswing such anecdotal reports suggest that good players
generally maintain a fixed flexion/extension position at the left (lead) wrist but perform
rapid flexion at the right (trail) wrist. To assess these anecdotal assertions, 3D wrist
kinematics of 8 skilled male golfers were determined during a high velocity golf drive.
Each participant used their preferred driver, with data recorded using a Vicon 3D optoreflective
system operating at 400 Hz. The results support anecdotal recommendations
with respect to the large extent of right wrist flexion. However, all players underwent a
considerable amount of left wrist flexion, which was in contrast
---->

In terms of the position of the wrist ( flexion/extension) at impact, the important point to convey to a student is that it impacts shot direction more than racquet head speed. it's important for a player to develop a "feel' for where the racquet head is in space. Ill just stick with that.

[julian1]

ONE wrist locked?

Amen, golf instruction, because they've embraced technology, is light years ahead of tennis instructiion. That's why when a guy like a Brian Gordon, or Elliot, come on here i take note. I do think this website is committed to separating fact from fiction, and thus is an invaluable resource.

As far as the use of the wrist in a type 1 forehand, the amount of flip, will determine how much ulnar to radial usage around contact. The racquet head will be much more underneath the hand (at the beginning of the forward swing) when more spin is the goal. As far as flexion is concerned, i stil believe the function of that articulation is more responsible for shot line then RHS.

Hi,
If you have 2 wrists "working" for double fisted backand u can "afford" to have one of them flexed/extended and ONE of them LOCKED

Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA
Bedford,MA

PS Please see the quote below
---->
WRIST KINEMATICS DURING THE GOLF DRIVE FROM A BILATERALLY
ANATOMICAL PERSPECTIVE
Matthew Sweeney1,2, Peter Mills3, Aditi Mankad 2,4, Bruce Elliott2, Jacqueline
Alderson2
1 Australia Catholic University, Brisbane, Australia 2 University of Western
Australia, Perth, Australia. 3 Centre for Musculoskeletal Research, Griffith
Health Institute, Griffith University, Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia,
4CSIRO, Brisbane Australia
Despite the reported importance of the wrist ‘un-cocking’ measure in the golf swing, only
anecdotal evidence exists with respect to the three dimensional or bilateral nature of wrist
motion. Through the downswing such anecdotal reports suggest that good players
generally maintain a fixed flexion/extension position at the left (lead) wrist but perform
rapid flexion at the right (trail) wrist. To assess these anecdotal assertions, 3D wrist
kinematics of 8 skilled male golfers were determined during a high velocity golf drive.
Each participant used their preferred driver, with data recorded using a Vicon 3D optoreflective
system operating at 400 Hz. The results support anecdotal recommendations
with respect to the large extent of right wrist flexion. However, all players underwent a
considerable amount of left wrist flexion, which was in contrast
---->

[10splayer]

Someone/gameboy posted at tennis warehouse forum
---->
Funny you should bring up golf as that was on my mind as I was watching the video. The analysis of golf swing is far ahead of tennis strokes with the use of Doppler radar, intensive video analysis, and even 3D motion analysis. And what they have learned over the last decade or so closely mirror what is happening in tennis now.

The main findings from golf swing analysis are as follows.

-Emphasize rotational motion over lateral motion
-The difference in angles between hips and shoulder is the main source of stored energy
-An efficient swing is a result if chain reaction from lower legs to hips to shoulders to arms to wrist. They need to fire in proper sequence for maximum power.
- Wrist lag is what separates man from the boys. The longest hitters feature extreme wrist lag that completes well after the forward swing has begun, just like Federer.
-Wrist lag is held on till the very last possible moment before it is released.
-The main difference between male and female golfers is the lack of extreme wrist lag and release. This is also the main difference I see between male and female tennis players in the video.

To me tennis is discovering what has been known in golf for years now. Both men and women can benefit from utilizing this knowledge. More and more junior girls are hitting longer balls than female pros.

I suspect something similar will happen as years go by in tennis.
---->

Amen, golf instruction, because they've embraced technology, is light years ahead of tennis instructiion. That's why when a guy like a Brian Gordon, or Elliot, come on here i take note. I do think this website is committed to separating fact from fiction, and thus is an invaluable resource.

As far as the use of the wrist in a type 1 forehand, the amount of flip, will determine how much ulnar to radial usage around contact. The racquet head will be much more underneath the hand (at the beginning of the forward swing) when more spin is the goal. As far as flexion is concerned, i stil believe the function of that articulation is more responsible for shot line then RHS.

[julian1]

Wrist contributes 9 percents to a golf club speed

And?

Wrist contributes 9 percents to a golf club speed.
Please see the content of the link

http://journals.humankinetics.com/jab-back-issues/jabvolume16issue4november/aninsightintotheimportanceofwristtorqueindrivingthegolfballasimulationstudy

See as well
---->
WRIST KINEMATICS DURING THE GOLF DRIVE FROM A BILATERALLY
ANATOMICAL PERSPECTIVE
Matthew Sweeney1,2, Peter Mills3, Aditi Mankad 2,4, Bruce Elliott2, Jacqueline
Alderson2
1 Australia Catholic University, Brisbane, Australia 2 University of Western
Australia, Perth, Australia. 3 Centre for Musculoskeletal Research, Griffith
Health Institute, Griffith University, Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia,
4CSIRO, Brisbane Australia
Despite the reported importance of the wrist ‘un-cocking’ measure in the golf swing, only
anecdotal evidence exists with respect to the three dimensional or bilateral nature of wrist
motion. Through the downswing such anecdotal reports suggest that good players
generally maintain a fixed flexion/extension position at the left (lead) wrist but perform
rapid flexion at the right (trail) wrist. To assess these anecdotal assertions, 3D wrist
kinematics of 8 skilled male golfers were determined during a high velocity golf drive.
Each participant used their preferred driver, with data recorded using a Vicon 3D optoreflective
system operating at 400 Hz. The results support anecdotal recommendations
with respect to the large extent of right wrist flexion. However, all players underwent a
considerable amount of left wrist flexion, which was in contrast
---->
see as well
----->
Examining the delayed release in the golf swing using
computer simulation
E. J. Sprigings and S. J. Mackenzie
College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada S7N 5C2
Abstract
The objectives of this study were first to examine whether, in theory, a delayed release
technique that used resistive wrist torque provided an advantage in clubhead speed; and
second, to identify the mechanical sources of power that are responsible for increasing
clubhead speed. A 2-D, three-segment model comprising torso, arm, and golfclub was
used to model the downward phase of the golf swing. Muscle torque generators,
constrained by the activation rates and force–velocity properties of human muscle, were
inserted at the proximal end of each segment. Three separate optimized simulation
conditions were examined. The first, SIM-1, made no attempt to constrain the natural
release of the clubshaft. Optimally activated muscular wrist torque was used to
accelerate the clubhead. The second, SIM-2, delayed the release point of the clubshaft
by means of a resistive muscular wrist torque. This was followed by active wrist torque
to accelerate the clubhead. The third, SIM-3, was similar to SIM-2 except no wrist
torque was used to accelerate the clubhead following the release point. The results
indicated that there was a small advantage in employing the delayed release technique
using resistive wrist torque, but significantly less than had been previously reported by
other simulation studies. The use of an active wrist torque following the delayed release
was found to be advantageous. The main source of power delivered to the golfclub
originated from the passive joint forces created at the wrist joint during the swing. In
terms of muscle power contributions to the swing, the torque generator at the shoulder
joint produced the highest value (800 W), followed by the

[julian1]

Wrist

And?

More differences between golf and tennis than similiarities

For starters a speed of wrist in golf is peaked at the contact.
Different than in tennis.

In golf
----->
Ulnar deviation torque is expected to play a minor role in
increasing clubhead speed since, near impact; it produces
clubhead motion which is perpendicular to the intended
direction of ball flight.
------>
Different than in tennis.

[julian1]

Loose remarks from TTW

And?

Someone/gameboy posted at tennis warehouse forum
---->
Funny you should bring up golf as that was on my mind as I was watching the video. The analysis of golf swing is far ahead of tennis strokes with the use of Doppler radar, intensive video analysis, and even 3D motion analysis. And what they have learned over the last decade or so closely mirror what is happening in tennis now.

The main findings from golf swing analysis are as follows.

-Emphasize rotational motion over lateral motion
-The difference in angles between hips and shoulder is the main source of stored energy
-An efficient swing is a result if chain reaction from lower legs to hips to shoulders to arms to wrist. They need to fire in proper sequence for maximum power.
- Wrist lag is what separates man from the boys. The longest hitters feature extreme wrist lag that completes well after the forward swing has begun, just like Federer.
-Wrist lag is held on till the very last possible moment before it is released.
-The main difference between male and female golfers is the lack of extreme wrist lag and release. This is also the main difference I see between male and female tennis players in the video.

To me tennis is discovering what has been known in golf for years now. Both men and women can benefit from utilizing this knowledge. More and more junior girls are hitting longer balls than female pros.

I suspect something similar will happen as years go by in tennis.
---->

[10splayer]

Please see

http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/Publications/MacKenzie%202009%20A%20three%20dimensional%20forward%20dynamics%20model%20of%20the%20golf%20swing.pdf

Figure 7 and Page 172

And?

[julian1]

Wrist action

Hi Stroke, sorry I haven't responded earlier. Maybe you could explain why you think it's easier for him to "hook" the ball on a crosscourt ball (with the wrist in a more flexed state) then a down the line shot. Not saying I disagree, just don't know.

My gut feeling is, that it shouldn't make any difference. As I mentioned before, I believe that initial shot line is governed by face angle, and spin (in this case) hook spin is created by an extreme inside-out path. One of the clearest examples is when a player is running (to the forehand side) and they "hook" the ball from outside the singles line into the court. (easy to see the flight path with the singles sideline as a reference) If you look at the path of racquet into contact, it is approaching from a pronounced "inside" position. The racquet face looks like it's almost moving sideways. (and of course, up)

It's interesting, because the golf teaching profession has been profoundly impacted by Trackman, which has proven that much of what has been taught in the past is flat out wrong. In a nutshell, it has revealed that the start line of shots is reflection of the clubface and impact, and the flight characteristics are determined by the path. Very similar to tennis.

Please see

http://people.stfx.ca/smackenz/Publications/MacKenzie%202009%20A%20three%20dimensional%20forward%20dynamics%20model%20of%20the%20golf%20swing.pdf

Figure 7 and Page 172

[GeoffWilliams]

Or debates about the female fh, its huge wind up, its lack of rpm, and snap back. The same reason they don't hit overheads, but just high ground strokes. Not because they can't, because their coaches don't think they can.

[johnyandell]

The issue is complex. With the more extreme grips in general the wrist is less laid back around contact. That's natural given the way the hand position aligns the racket handle...

But on the majority of all balls, particularly with grips in the Fed to Agassi range, the wrist is laid back at contact, and also laid back to the same degree or sometimes even more after contact. There also seems to be a relationship between court position, shot direction, and the degree or angle of the lay back.

If wrist flexion means the attempt to snap the wrist forward that is not happening at the level of conscious muslce contraction.

Nonetheless the obsession with the use of the wrist in the forehand continues and now based on 20 years of discussion I suspect will for the future. It's like debates over diet, cholesteral and statins.

[stroke]

Hi Stroke, sorry I haven't responded earlier. Maybe you could explain why you think it's easier for him to "hook" the ball on a crosscourt ball (with the wrist in a more flexed state) then a down the line shot. Not saying I disagree, just don't know.

My gut feeling is, that it shouldn't make any difference. As I mentioned before, I believe that initial shot line is governed by face angle, and spin (in this case) hook spin is created by an extreme inside-out path. One of the clearest examples is when a player is running (to the forehand side) and they "hook" the ball from outside the singles line into the court. (easy to see the flight path with the singles sideline as a reference) If you look at the path of racquet into contact, it is approaching from a pronounced "inside" position. The racquet face looks like it's almost moving sideways. (and of course, up)

It's interesting, because the golf teaching profession has been profoundly impacted by Trackman, which has proven that much of what has been taught in the past is flat out wrong. In a nutshell, it has revealed that the start line of shots is reflection of the clubface and impact, and the flight characteristics are determined by the path. Very similar to tennis.

I would think it is kind of because of the same reason it is easier to hit a more extreme kick serve to the ad court than the deuce court(for a right hander). I have noticed when Nadal attempts to hit an inside out forehand from his ad court area to his opponents deuce court, and hit his signature hook, the hook does not take or happen sometimes. I am not sure why that is. It appears to be just not as natural a shot as when he is hitting it from his deuce court to his opponents ad court.

[julian1]

We agree on both statements

Julian,

Can we agree (at least as it relates to a forehand tennis stroke) that in the forward swing, because the racquet is pulled butt cap first, the weight of the racquet head will produce an "extended" position with the wrist in the forward swing....If we can agree on that, then all we're talking about is how much, if any, the wrist move into flexion at impact... As I've mentioned before, this movement has a profound impact on the "start line" of shots.

10splayer,
we agree on both statements.

If one wants to visualize

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/HD/Novak_Djokovic/Forehand_Backhand/Forehand_Backhand.html?djokovic_fh_center_side1.mov

would be a good demonstration of BOTH YOUR statements.

Regards,
Julian

PS #1
The video quoted above is probably valid/correct till ONE frame before
the contact.

The part which is more difficult is:
say a player reverses a cross court ball.
How does wrist control two different components of
a speed vector:
parallel and perpendicular to a baseline
PS#2
The paper

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/ajp/79/5/10.1119/1.3556712

by Rod Cross provides some modelling/numerical of the scenario you described

[10splayer]

http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Wr...l#anchor260949

Julian,

Can we agree (at least as it relates to a forehand tennis stroke) that in the forward swing, because the racquet is pulled butt cap first, the weight of the racquet head will produce an "extended" position with the wrist in the forward swing....If we can agree on that, then all we're talking about is how much, if any, the wrist move into flexion at impact... As I've mentioned before, this movement has a profound impact on the "start line" of shots.