Would love to get your thought's on "A New Teaching System: The Second Serve"!
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A New Teaching System: The Second Serve
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Contact point? Not as high?
Originally posted by johnyandell View PostWould love to get your thought's on "A New Teaching System: The Second Serve"!
don
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2 or 3 important inches
Originally posted by johnyandell View PostI would agree yes, lower. That does go with the backward (or left bevel) of the racket tip. Probably like 2 or 3 inches?? At most.
don
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More Pros Going Big on Second?
Originally posted by johnyandell View PostWould love to get your thought's on "A New Teaching System: The Second Serve"!
Do you have any thoughts on the apparent trend of more ATP pros going for aggressive, second serves?
Not sure it is relevant to us weekend hackers, but I've noticed two approaches 1) a lot more "big" seconds, i.e. 116-125 by likes of Nole, DelPo, Janowicz, Gulbis and 2) more wide, short slice (Dimitrov, Fed, Haas)
Tangentially, there is this 2010 NYT.com article by John Branch arguing that mathematically many ATP players would be better off hitting two first serves (Djoko yes, Fed no).
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Originally posted by jimlosaltos View PostJohn,
Do you have any thoughts on the apparent trend of more ATP pros going for aggressive, second serves?
Not sure it is relevant to us weekend hackers, but I've noticed two approaches 1) a lot more "big" seconds, i.e. 116-125 by likes of Nole, DelPo, Janowicz, Gulbis and 2) more wide, short slice (Dimitrov, Fed, Haas)
Tangentially, there is this 2010 NYT.com article by John Branch arguing that mathematically many ATP players would be better off hitting two first serves (Djoko yes, Fed no).
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/30/sp...30serving.html
Tim Henman assures us Brits that, on average, second serves are slower these days and less aggressively placed...just rolled in. He thinks there is an opportunity for the game to change as a result. He thinks returners could attack more and even seize the net.
I'm have no idea whether the average second serve speeds of players have decreased or increased over the last five years or not. I watch tennis mostly TV and not live so it's hard to judge.
Is Henman right...or is his personal opinion undermined by evidence? Over to John....Last edited by stotty; 10-13-2013, 02:46 PM.Stotty
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You guys give me too much credit. The numbers are out there but someone would have to compile them...but my impression is second serve speed is going up just like all ball speed.
The idea of hitting two first serves...yeah I read that article. There is an assumption there that these guys are robots and can just produce shots according to certain percentages should they choose to. Obviously the feeling of hitting a first and second serve is different emotionally and psychologically and that's why it's kind of a silly idea in my opinion.
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Women winning just 20% of second serve points
There's been times I've looked at women's stats and thought hitting two first serves was a no-brainer. Sometimes they lose 80% of their second serve points, and I'm talking about top ten women, especially playing against other top ten women.
Barry Mackay made it work well enough to win the NCAA's and the Italian and earn a number one ranking in the US and even a #1 seeding at the French.
don
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Henman?
Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post
Is Henman right...or is his personal opinion undermined by evidence? Over to John....
IMHO Henman is a couple of years too late; the servers are responding. In that great Delpo-Nole semi at Wimby this year, Delpo was teeing off until Djokovic started going for 116 mph second serves to counter. On WTA side, Bartoli won Wimby basically hitting nothing but first serves.
But, again, it's not all about velocity, I'm also starting to see more variety on second serves, not simply going for more MPH while still hitting kickers. Not all the time, mind you, but more than I recall ever before. For example, going for really wide slice in the ad court on a second serve. I've seen Fed and Nole do this occasionally, but more often lately by younger players, such as Grigor Dimitrov.
Not sure it is a trend yet, but perhaps just starting. Something to look for.
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Getting back to the article, the variation concept of the first serve and second serve differences simplifies and clarifies. It's has cut a lot of mental clutter out for me when trying to hit a second at a big moment. I love the idea of the second serve having as much racket head speed. The only good choice becomes to go for it.
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I agree. I always thought of the first and second serve as different. When I finally learned the kick serve 15 years ago I developed a horrible hitch. Then I worked on it for three years starting in 2010 and it began to get better. But I found that I could hit either a first or second serve well. They were different in timing and my windup varied because of it. Lately, I have been trying to use the same windup for both serves and just focus on tossing it in a slightly different place and hitting up more. It seems to have helped as now there is less variation in my windup. It feels like a slight different rhythm but it no longer feels like a different serve. So simply by changing the location of the toss a bit, catching it a little lower and hitting up more I can generate a reasonable second serve without having to think about any specific physical technique. And I can accelerate just as much but in a slightly different direction.
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Wow, this has been a huge help to my second serve since coming out. I've started really focusing on just bringing the toss back a little bit and thanks to the Federer clip I have an unbelievable image in my mind of the racket head moving upwards and the angle of the racket relative to the first serve. Just by doing this and making sure I'm always going up and accelerating the racket my serve speed, spin and consistency has increased on the second serve greatly!
I find it pretty incredible how one image in your mind, maybe two can do this. Keep up the great work John!
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Originally posted by johnyandell View PostWould love to get your thought's on "A New Teaching System: The Second Serve"!Last edited by 10splayer; 10-29-2013, 09:14 AM.
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Interesting. I have thought a lot about the fact that the serve is really much more of an up concept than most people realize. I have been teaching my son to serve since he was 7 and watched him evolve. He used to hit a sky high serve when he was really young. Today he hits a reasonable spin serve but not quite as much kick yet at 14. But early on I emphasized the up portion of the serve and he gets that. In fact, he is a weird lefty that prefers to hit to a righty's forehand than to the backhand. My sense is that most rec players hit a the slice much more naturally. But as I watch more skilled players and pros they seem to hit much more of a topspin kick serve even on the first serve. The second serve just adds more topspin to it in order to increase the margin.
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