Interactive Forum October 2013: Sergi Bruguera Forehand

[johnyandell]

Sergi Bruguera: Forehand

He won two French Open titles in the 1990's and recently is name has appeared in the discussion over the spin levels in the current pro game. Bruguera matched Nadal's averages of over 3000rpm--and this was in the days before poly strings! How did he do it? It may not look exactly the way you imagined! Check it out for yourself and let us know what you think about Sergi's forehand swing!

[lobndropshot]

John are there any stats on how much spin a shank can generate?

[stroke]

Very interesting John seeing Sergi now that we have all been educated somewhat on the ATP forehand by Brian. First of all, Sergi appears to be using much more of a western grip than even Novak. I guess it is a 5/5. It looks almost like a continental hit on the other side of the face. He also supinates early during his backswing, no flip going on there. He appears to take the racquet back past the plane of his shoulders, certainly not a short, direct line to contact. He also straightens his arm out on the forward swing and breaks the straight arm configuration before contact. I would guess his high spin levels are just a result of his big swing and extreme western grip. It is certainly not a type 3 forehand. I would be very curious to get 10splayers take on it. He does get his elbow up away from his torso at contact, so I would think he does get the big benefit on engaging his shoulder muscle at contact.

[klacr]

This hurts me just looking at it.

Stroke, I agree with you on most of it. The shoulders passing the plane of his shoulders I'm not seeing because of the angle.

Sergi was a beast on clay. That spin was vicious. Watching clips of him, he never hit the ball with as much depth as Nadal. But still, in his day, highly effective.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA

[jryle1]

Wow, look at how much he has to rotate his shoulders and body in order to hit the ball with that extreme grip! Absolutely insane stuff.

Also, I believe one of the main contributors to the amount of spin is that extreme racket path! Look at how vertical is racket path is from the start of the forward swing and how low his racket start! That is absolutely outrageous. How he didn't severely injure his right arm and shoulder is beyond me.

Unbelievable ability to hit a forehand like that.

Anyone else agree on the racket path?

I think also there are VERY VERY slight elements of the ATP forehand in terms of, when he starts the forehand you can see a little mini flip happen if you look at the racket carefully? It is very difficult to see with this camera angle but is there a slight one there? The wrist is certainly laid back extensively.

[10splayer]

I mentioned this in the past with not much response, but what the heck, ill throw it out there again for discussion sake, as i believe it is applicable here.

Essentially, I believe there are two factors working in tandem to produce vertical racquet head speed and spin. They can be combined in a myriad of ways to produce different trajectories and spin rates. The first, of coarse, would be the "slope" to the racquet in the forward swing path (the degree of low to high). That is, how steep or shallow the shoulder is lifting the arm. This can be determined, by tracking the movement of the hand. And yes, the degree of low to high movement Sergi is exhibiting here is off the charts. Unbelievably steep angle of attack.

The other spin producer would be the mythical windshield wiper/hand and arm rotation. Verify this. Take a racquet and simulate impact position, with the shaft parallel to the ground and the tip pointed at say 3 o'clock. Now, rotate the tip down to 5, and then back to 3, and then up to say 12. This combination of pronation, internal rotation, and ulner to radial deviation, creates another vector. (in the vertical/spin producing sense)

So what's the point? It's my contention that the likes of Fed, Djoker etc, are relying more on the windshield wiping action to produce spin, (as opposed to the slope/path) then in the past. Indeed, on most "stock" forehands, the attack angle (slope) is relatively shallow (20 degrees or so upwards) while wiping the hell out of the thing. But why would they do that? To me, the answer is pretty simple. By combining a shallow path (which retains ball speed) and ample wiping action,(plenty of spin) they get the best of both worlds. Lower trajectory, 90 mile an hour bullets,with 3000 rpms of spin. They're not having to take huge "uppercuts" (like Sergi,which comes at the expense of velocity) to produce high spin rates.


Everything about Sergi's swing, screams "spin by path". The incredibly steep angle of attack, the early and pronounced leg lift/extension, the backward tilt of the torso, etc. Heck, it looks like he's hitting a damn topsin lob. And these are on balls that are in the middle of the court and not under pressure. These are pretty much "stock" shots. This kind of action (i would imagine) is going to produce massive spin, a loopier trajectory, and diminished ball speed compared to a guy like Djoker. (who has a similar grip)

Just my 02 cents.

[stroke]

I think 10splayer is correct with his thoughts on this. To possibly elaborate, the more efficient, more compact, more power Brian presents with the type 3 may offer more ball compression into the strings, which combined with the wiper motion and increased racquet head speed makes for the truly heavy ball. I would love to know the racquet head speed(at ball contact) of Nadal or Fed vs Sergi.

[10splayer]

I think 10splayer is correct with his thoughts on this. To possibly elaborate, the more efficient, more compact, more power Brian presents with the type 3 may offer more ball compression into the strings, which combined with the wiper motion and increased racquet head speed makes for the truly heavy ball. I would love to know the racquet head speed(at ball contact) of Nadal or Fed vs Sergi.

Yeah, I agree. I actually think (not sure) Brian mentioned that the straighter line to the ball, combined with the stretch-shortened effect with this type, allows a player to most efficiently turn the wiper at greater speeds.

It's one of the great things about having a guy of Brian's caliber on here. He can ACTUALLY quantify how different arm configurations, paths, etc produce different degrees of force, torque. It's nice to have a scientific perspective.

[stroke]

Yeah, I agree. I actually think (not sure) Brian mentioned that the straighter line to the ball, combined with the stretch-shortened effect with this type, allows a player to most efficiently turn the wiper at greater speeds.

It's one of the great things about having a guy of Brian's caliber on here. He can ACTUALLY quantify how different arm configurations, paths, etc produce different degrees of force, torque. It's nice to have a scientific perspective.

Copy that

[don_budge]

In a word...ugly!

Sergi Bruguera: Forehand

He won two French Open titles in the 1990's and recently is name has appeared in the discussion over the spin levels in the current pro game. Bruguera matched Nadal's averages of over 3000rpm--and this was in the days before poly strings! How did he do it? It may not look exactly the way you imagined! Check it out for yourself and let us know what you think about Sergi's forehand swing!

An ugly, horribly hideous swing...aesthetically speaking. I don't understand the fascination with spin levels. One comment about the Interactive Forum concept though and I have made it in the past. I believe that it would be much more meaningful to show the players backhand and possibly service motion together in a more comprehensive thread. It would be interesting to look at the whole enchilada as opposed to one dysfunctional forehand over and over. Maybe there is something more redeeming in the backhand or the serve? Just a thought.

Don't mind me...I am just the voice in the wilderness. The proverbial thorn in the side. Don Quixote thrashing against giant windmills. Sort of like the old Prime Minister of Sweden, Olaf Palme was to the American government during the Vietnam War. He withdrew the Swedish Ambassador from the USA in protest of the war. He's dead now. Assassinated by an unknown assailant.

This hurts me just looking at it. Sergi was a beast on clay. That spin was vicious.
Kyle LaCroix USPTA

Yeah...it hurts alright. It hurts my sense of sensibility. It hurts my eyes. It hurts my homage to fundamentals. It redeems what I said about the game of tennis when they changed the equipment to "Super Size"...they destroyed the game and took the art out of it. Attempt to stroke a tennis ball with a classic racquet like this and I can just see the mishits rocketing out of the stadium. He'd be framing it...more often than not.

It's a beast of a forehand and no doubt it served him well on clay. One would have thought that it would be a big liability on any other surface...other than modern surfaces. One look at his overall records at other venues reveal that this matador is really a one trick pony. Particularly on grass where the true test of all-court tennis used to reside. Sergi couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag on a proper tennis court...other than clay it seems. Of his 17 titles...16 of them were on the dirt. His record in Slams other than clay is rather modest...to say the least. The technique is very limiting...he is condemned to play a very boring repetitive style of tennis...one that has more or less become the standard issue of modern tennis. The Spanish Issue. Fie on that...I say.

Spin? Path of the racquet? Look at the alignment to the ball. It's atrocious and nothing can be said about it except..."top spin". He has no other options. The grip is over cooked just like the rest of the stroke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergi_Bruguera

Wow! Absolutely insane stuff.

Also, I believe one of the main contributors to the amount of spin is that extreme racket path! Look at how vertical is racket path is from the start of the forward swing and how low his racket start! That is absolutely outrageous.

Unbelievable ability to hit a forehand like that.

Anyone else agree on the racket path?

I think also there are VERY VERY slight elements of the ATP forehand in terms of, when he starts the forehand you can see a little mini flip happen if you look at the racket carefully? It is very difficult to see with this camera angle but is there a slight one there? The wrist is certainly laid back extensively.

It's insane alright. Really stupid if you ask me. Unbelievable ability? I don't know...unbelievable something I suppose. The racquet path? I am not certain what you are seeing but what I see is the footwork that renders his racquet path a foregone conclusion. All of that spin is due to a "super-sized" open stance and the overcooked grip. He is largely fanning the ball and unless he can consistently get the ball at least waist high...he is going to be in deep doo-doo with that suped-up grip and extreme footwork. Horrible mechanics...he is largely limited to playing solely from the backcourt with very little variation in his game. Boring...right out of the mold of another Spaniard that comes to mind...can you say David Ferrer.

Who cares about the comparison's to the "ATP" forehand as illustrated so capably by Brian and Rick? This baby is ugly...it doesn't matter how you try to dress it up. It is so ugly I want to look at something else...that is why I suggest seeing the backhand and serve as well. Hopefully there would be something a bit more aesthetic to look at.

As much success as Sergi had with the style of game that he played I wonder what he might have achieved with some proper coaching. Great build for tennis and probably a lot of ability...judging from what he did with his inferior mechanics and wayward technique...he did win a couple of French Open's.

I hope that I am not being to critical...probably not. At least not for the worldsbesttenniscoach. hahaha...

[stroke]

Maybe a bit critical. He did get to 3 in the world. His only weapon, his entire game, was based on that forehand. I did look at that link DB supplied. Interestingly, he has a winning record vs Sampras and had a win, the only time they played, over Fed, albeit very early in Fed's career, year 2000.

[stotty]

I'm a fan

Bruguera was a great clay court player, one of the very best. He had artistry and skills and played with guile and touch. His forehand was very effective. I loved his backhand too...unusual take back he had.

His forehand was an anomaly in that he could skim the ball over and over again yet not lose length...at least not in the sense that it caused a problem. Most players could never do this. Try it yourself with an extreme grip and see what happens. I really liked Bruguera. He was different.

Having attended numerous workshops taken by Spanish coach educators on developing players, you realise that Spanish academies rely on players to self-develop to a large extent and instead work heavily on footwork...footwork in every sense imaginable. The fact Bruguera's forehand was like it was would have caused them no concern at all.

He did reach the 4th round at Wimbledon in 1994, beating Rafter along the way 13-11 in the fifth. I was there ten rows back. It was a sweltering hot day and Rafter cramped up in the fifth. He wasn't great on grass but he played smart that day.

[stroke]

Bruguera was a great clay court player, one of the very best. He had artistry and skills and played with guile and touch. His forehand was very effective. I loved his backhand too...unusual take back he had.

His forehand was an anomaly in that he could skim the ball over and over again yet not lose length...at least not in the sense that it caused a problem. Most players could never do this. Try it yourself with an extreme grip and see what happens. I really liked Bruguera. He was different.

Having attended numerous workshops taken by Spanish coach educators on developing players, you realise that Spanish academies rely on players to self-develop to a large extent and work heavily on footwork instead...footwork in every sense imaginable. The fact Bruguera's forehand was like it was would have caused them no concern at all.

He did reach the 4th round at Wimbledon in 1994, beating Rafter along the way 13-11 in the fifth. I was there ten rows back. It was a sweltering hot day and Rafter crampe
d up in the fifth. He wasn't great on grass but he played smart that day.

Great post.

[chrislewit]

The Sergi videos are awesome and really interesting to observe.
I don't think his swing is ugly at all; it's modern, and considering the time, it was genius and a foreshadow of the future of the game.


I forgot that he was getting those RPM's without and poly strings! Incredible


Sergi plays very open and lifts his left leg, tilting his shoulders backwards. However, it's interesting to note that in the Bruguera system, they definitely stress the opposite for young kids. They do not teach this to the students in Spain, as many people would assume.


Most Spanish academies stress the "old fashioned" neutral stance and good weight transfer. The open stance as exemplified by Sergi is a byproduct of playing years on clay and doing what he felt gave him the best spin and acceleration; same with the grip.


He was a forehand genius and his dad created a system for developing this forehand in the 80's built upon a new vision for what a pro forehand could or should look like. Then came poly and the modern game...


People need to understand the historical context to understand why this was so revolutionary at the time. In the 80's, most Spanish players still played flat and slice ball. Sergi was an absolute sensation and created a revolution in the game in Spain.


I promise you that there were many, many critics of Lluis in Spain who told him that he was going to ruin his son's potential by allowing this new variation of the forehand. Lluis told me so. Who did history vindicate?


It is remarkable that Sergi never had a hip problem or wrist issue. Perhaps his trainer also had the foresight to prehab his hip flexors to endure the new forces he was creating in that joint.

[stotty]

The Sergi videos are awesome and really interesting to observe.
I don't think his swing is ugly at all; it's modern, and considering the time, it was genius and a foreshadow of the future of the game.


I forgot that he was getting those RPM's without and poly strings! Incredible


Sergi plays very open and lifts his left leg, tilting his shoulders backwards. However, it's interesting to note that in the Bruguera system, they definitely stress the opposite for young kids. They do not teach this to the students in Spain, as many people would assume.


Most Spanish academies stress the "old fashioned" neutral stance and good weight transfer. The open stance as exemplified by Sergi is a byproduct of playing years on clay and doing what he felt gave him the best spin and acceleration; same with the grip.


He was a forehand genius and his dad created a system for developing this forehand in the 80's built upon a new vision for what a pro forehand could or should look like. Then came poly and the modern game...


People need to understand the historical context to understand why this was so revolutionary at the time. In the 80's, most Spanish players still played flat and slice ball. Sergi was an absolute sensation and created a revolution in the game in Spain.


I promise you that there were many, many critics of Lluis in Spain who told him that he was going to ruin his son's potential by allowing this new variation of the forehand. Lluis told me so. Who did history vindicate?


It is remarkable that Sergi never had a hip problem or wrist issue. Perhaps his trainer also had the foresight to prehab his hip flexors to endure the new forces he was creating in that joint.

Thanks for this great perspective.

When you watch Bruguera play you can see where Nadal came from. Bruguera was great to watch and very skillful. I liked his backhand also which was very unusual at the time...with the tip of the racket pointing up dead vertical on the take back. His preparation on that shot was quite wonderful. He always seemed to have so much time.

I liked his "pop the ball in and see what develops" approach. A lot of great clay courters have this mentality. There's plenty of time to sort things out on a clay court so no need to rush head long in to things. It might turn out you can just out rally the opponent (Borg) so it's better to wait and see before taking risks or feeling you have to employ anything. But like all great clay court players, he was best to watch when someone could push him...force him to use all those great skills.