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  • John's USPTA Forehand Return Presentation

    I had the pleasure of listening to John's forehand return presentation at the USPTA world Conference in Orlando on Thursday and here are some key take aways that I want to share.

    Right off the top of my head, there are 6 main commonalities that these great pros share when it comes to returning a first serve with the forehand (there are more I'm sure, but these keys stick out).

    The grip is milder: generally, it's better to use a more conservative grip on the forehand return...so if you have a semi western grip on the forehand groundstroke, consider moving the hand more toward an eastern which will allow you to hit the ball flatter with less mishits against faster incoming serves.

    The first move is less pronounced: when you make your first move on the return, move your off hand across the body so that the hand points more towards the net post instead of going more parallel to the baseline. As the
    off hand and arm move across the body, they should go below shoulder level so that the racquet head feels lower than a regular groundstroke.

    The backswing is shorter: with a first move that creates less shoulder turn and a lower takeback with the racquet, the backswing will naturally be smaller. The racquet face will also be more closed during the first move and backswing.

    The finish is high and conservative: to get through the ball with appropriate extension, it's also more effective to finish high and over the shoulder instead of across the body. This would be considered a more "old school" swing path
    allowing for less things to go wrong throughout the swing.

    The back to front footwork is often utilized: when you're pulled wide, it's important to pivot off the outside foot as you approach the incoming ball. Push
    into the ground with the outside foot and as you make contact, the front foot will cross over the body in order to cut the angle the ball. After contact, the front foot hits the ground completing what I call the "back to front" pattern which is very similar to the footwork for the running forehand.

    The body squares up AFTER contact: once the front foot comes down, the back leg needs to come through as well so that you can square up into a wide base. As a right hander in the deuce court, you might be in the alley or outside the alley at this point so it's critical to finish in a wide base in order to push off using a crossover step to recover back toward the middle of the court.

    And what about how the forehand return differs from the forehand groundstroke besides using a more conservative grip. All the top players like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic hit their forehand returns off first serves much flatter than their
    forehand groundstrokes. In fact, with high speed analysis, it has been determined that the average revolutions per minute on a forehand return by Federer is less than 1000 RPM, significantly less than the 2700 RPM's created by his forehand groundstroke.

    ...which means that the forehand return is hit with much less spin
    than the forehand groundstroke.

    Would be interested to hear what others have to say about the forehand return.

    Jeff Salzenstein

  • #2
    Good post Jeff. It was great to meet you in Orlando as well. Your presentation on the serve was well received. Unfortunately they only gave you an hour. You could have easily gone 2.

    John's presentation on the forehand return was great, as expected. One thing I noticed on the pros returns as they split step they do it at the exact moment of impact. Never too early or too late. This timing is amazing and they never seem to be caught off balance or guessing. Although, I'd love to serve against them for just one game. I have a feeling my Roscoe Tanner-esque quick toss motion may throw them their timing off for at least one game before they figure it out.

    Also, I noticed that all 3 players John showed,(Federer, Nadal, Djokovic) just before making their initial split step, they took a slight step or lean towards the middle of the court, no matter where server was directing his shot. Hard to put into words but if you watch some return points or read John's return articles, you'll see this "Centered" step. On deuce side, players will step or lean to left, on ad side they will step or lean to the right. I also noticed Agassi did this as well. He would actually take a step towards center of court before server made contact then immediately split-stepped at ball contact. And from what I remember, he was a pretty good returner. Something to it?

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton

    Comment


    • #3
      The USPTA conference presentations aren't recorded and uploaded online like they are for the ITF Worldwide Coaches Conference are they?

      Would be interesting to take a look!

      Comment


      • #4
        jryle,

        All USPTA Presentations are recorded and displayed on the USPTA website in the education section but is only available to members. The conference was just last week so it will take a little time for them to display it.

        Kyle LaCroix USPTA
        Boca Raton

        Comment


        • #5
          Kyle,

          Salzy is on vacation--but I made him post before he left. Intriquing idea. Post a url or two from the archives where you see that.

          JY

          Comment


          • #6
            Do you see what I see?

            John,

            Per your request...

            I have posted some url's of Federer, Djokovic, Nadal and Agassi. Some are more pronounced than others. They take a step just before, or immediately after or while floating in the split step towards the center of the court. It's not just a step straight in or hop straight up, it's always at a diagonal towards center.

            A shift they use to engage the legs even more to push off to return a wide serve or to maybe take away the T serve? I have been doing this for years because it felt although I was moving away from the wide serve, I'd have greater strength to push off if I need to stretch wide. People have made comments to me about my return ritual and my only answer was it made me feel extra ready. Make no mistake, my return is not the hallmark of my game by any means, but my reach usually lets me return balls I probably shouldn't get my racquet on.

            Am I onto something with these returns? is it fairly well known and I missed the memo? Or am I just weird? Probably the latter but still wanted to share. Thanks.


            Here is Federer. His is slight but you can see it.


            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...0500fps%20.mp4


            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...6%20500fps.mp4




            Novak Djokovic...Backhand return. He still hops to his right.

            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t%20500fps.mp4

            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20250fps.mp4

            these are second serves...more pronounced.

            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20250fps.mp4


            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t%20500fps.mp4

            With Rafael Nadal, it's difficult to see on the forehand but here he is on a backhand return deuce side and he is actually jumping to his forehand side then to his right for a backhand.


            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t%20500fps.mp4


            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...3%20500fps.mp4


            Here's Agassi...He does it so there must be something behind it.

            Forehand first.
            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...euceFront1.mov

            Backhand
            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...stSAdRear3.mov

            I'm very confident in this. But respect your opinions.
            Hope you guys see what I see. If not, feel free to use the Baker Act on me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Mental_Health_Act


            Kyle LaCroix USPTA
            Boca Raton
            Last edited by klacr; 09-30-2013, 06:15 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Splitting the angle theory

              Originally posted by klacr View Post
              John,

              Per your request...

              I have posted some url's of Federer, Djokovic, Nadal and Agassi. Some are more pronounced than others. They take a step just before, or immediately after or while floating in the split step towards the center of the court. It's not just a step straight in or hop straight up, it's always at a diagonal towards center.

              A shift they use to engage the legs even more to push off to return a wide serve or to maybe take away the T serve? I have been doing this for years because it felt although I was moving away from the wide serve, I'd have greater strength to push off if I need to stretch wide. People have made comments to me about my return ritual and my only answer was it made me feel extra ready. Make no mistake, my return is not the hallmark of my game by any means, but my reach usually lets me return balls I probably shouldn't get my racquet on.

              Am I onto something with these returns? is it fairly well known and I missed the memo? Or am I just weird? Probably the latter but still wanted to share. Thanks.


              Here is Federer. His is slight but you can see it.


              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...0500fps%20.mp4


              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...6%20500fps.mp4




              Novak Djokovic...Backhand return. He still hops to his right.

              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t%20500fps.mp4

              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20250fps.mp4

              these are second serves...more pronounced.

              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20250fps.mp4


              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t%20500fps.mp4

              With Rafael Nadal, it's difficult to see on the forehand but here he is on a backhand return deuce side and he is actually jumping to his forehand side then to his right for a backhand.


              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t%20500fps.mp4


              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...3%20500fps.mp4


              Here's Agassi...He does it so there must be something behind it.

              Forehand first.
              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...euceFront1.mov

              Backhand
              http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...stSAdRear3.mov

              I'm very confident in this. But respect your opinions.
              Hope you guys see what I see. If not, feel free to use the Baker Act on me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Mental_Health_Act


              Kyle LaCroix USPTA
              Boca Raton
              I think you can make a very strong argument for Federer that he is just moving forward along the bisector of the angle in the "Splitting the Angle Theory", but while that may contribute in the other clips, there is clearly more than that happening, especially for Djokovic and Agassi. And they are the gold standard, right?!

              don

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post
                I think you can make a very strong argument for Federer that he is just moving forward along the bisector of the angle in the "Splitting the Angle Theory", but while that may contribute in the other clips, there is clearly more than that happening, especially for Djokovic and Agassi. And they are the gold standard, right?!

                don
                How about this Federer return?

                http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelFront.mov

                Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                Boca Raton

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well something is happening! I noticed this in one Nadal return from the presentation but was not sure what to make of it. But I didn't notice how common it was. Interesting question. Great that you brought it into discussion, Kyle.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
                    Well something is happening! I noticed this in one Nadal return from the presentation but was not sure what to make of it. But I didn't notice how common it was. Interesting question. Great that you brought it into discussion, Kyle.
                    There must be something to it. What it is I'm not sure. Is it a tactical choice or a technical or both? I doubt we'll get Nadal, Djokovic or Agassi to answer but we can discuss the theories all we want to.


                    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                    Boca Raton

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sorry I've been busy and haven't connected with you guys since I had meetings early in the week in Orlando but left mid-week. Sorry to miss Kyle, Jeff, John and Brian. But will be in touch. Good point Kyle!

                      I actually teach it and have been for years. But maybe a bit different from what Kyle mentions. A couple friends taught it or inspired it. There are 3 moves: one-legged into hop-scotch ala Andy Murray which I use and double split-step. Many players also use a single split-step. I actually attribute much of the ideas for my teaching progressions from a couple well-known pros (more teachers/thinkers than tour coaches). The move to the middle I think is a natural tendency since as pointed out it's following the serve and cutting off the angle. The independent factor is the opponent and what the opponent is serving to (presumably more to the weaker side). So most players serve to Nadal's or Federer's backhand more. They often serve to Gasquet's forehand. That may neutralize the actual movement (e.g. preparing to run around, etc). John filmed from finite match sources so we are not seeing a true random statistic of movement (e.g, the Nadal matches might be from 3 matches/opponents unseen, not over 50 matches which randomizes the effect). So statistically it is unclear.

                      There are however other clear footwork patterns (as mentioned the basic 3 above). Nadal and Djokovic use a single split-step on the first serve. Djokovic sometimes uses the hopscotch (1-leg, 2-leg) on the second serve sometimes (maybe 50%?). Nadal tends to use single split-step on first and second serves. Murray and Federer usually use the 1-2 hopscotch on the second serve. They both use the double split-step on the first serve. Both Federer and Murray step (almost always?) on the left foot (1) and then split step (2). (By comparison I was taught to go off the right foot...so I am wondering should I make the initial move off the dominate foot when maybe I want a slight tilt to the forehand...2 steps on the left foot favors anchoring/loading the right foot back...that makes me rethink maybe what should I be doing...left or right foot first?). Djokovic uses either left or right foot when going 1-2 on the second serve (I don't see a clear pattern yet). Nadal might move to the middle the most consistently but I don't see the others doing that.

                      So for the first serve (return), the single or double split-step is favored. For the second serve, there is significantly more 1-2 (hopscotch) steps to close off the angle more and possibly create tilt/angle of hips (e.g., to favor forehand). The 1-2 is used to initiate a more aggressive position and momentum.
                      Last edited by DougEng; 10-03-2013, 06:37 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Wow, good stuff Doug! Thanks for chiming in. This is why I love tennisplayer.net.

                        No worries about missing us in Orlando. I'll be presenting at the Florida Division Conference next year as well as a presentation in NYC for the world conference so we'll meet up eventually.

                        getting to your post, The split step patterns are an interesting observation as well. Most times, the science and technique of the split steps gets lost as we focus on the happenings above the waist with the stroke mechanics and the incoming ball. The split step just isn't a sexy topic, but there is clearly something just as important happening in the lower body. You may have the best forehand, but if your feet are not in position to hit it really doesn't matter.

                        As for the question of stepping off right foot or left foot...I'm not sure if one is of greater advantage over the other. When I play, I've always stepped off the left foot and then into my split step. I'm not sure I'd be willing to try the right foot simply for the fact that I would be have to be truly conscious of that and wouldn't want anything else to think about. Similar to asking a centipede how it walks. The centipede doesn't know or doesn't want to know, it just makes it work. If he thought about it that would make him mess up.

                        Doug, you say it's a natural tendency. Natural tendency for who? Just the elite players I'm assuming due to the speed and spin of serves they are receiving. Not necessary for club players? Is it similar to the slice backhand difference between pros and club players (more downward for pros vs. straight through for clubbers?)

                        I think this observation and discussion will need a little more time to be researched and flavors to be developed. With that said, Doug's points all make sense and is an awesome analysis of what could lead to a deeper discussion. It's an interesting technical, tactical or idiosyncratic move.

                        Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                        Boca Raton

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by klacr View Post
                          Wow, good stuff Doug! Thanks for chiming in. This is why I love tennisplayer.net.

                          No worries about missing us in Orlando. I'll be presenting at the Florida Division Conference next year as well as a presentation in NYC for the world conference so we'll meet up eventually.

                          getting to your post, The split step patterns are an interesting observation as well. Most times, the science and technique of the split steps gets lost as we focus on the happenings above the waist with the stroke mechanics and the incoming ball. The split step just isn't a sexy topic, but there is clearly something just as important happening in the lower body. You may have the best forehand, but if your feet are not in position to hit it really doesn't matter.

                          As for the question of stepping off right foot or left foot...I'm not sure if one is of greater advantage over the other. When I play, I've always stepped off the left foot and then into my split step. I'm not sure I'd be willing to try the right foot simply for the fact that I would be have to be truly conscious of that and wouldn't want anything else to think about. Similar to asking a centipede how it walks. The centipede doesn't know or doesn't want to know, it just makes it work. If he thought about it that would make him mess up.

                          Doug, you say it's a natural tendency. Natural tendency for who? Just the elite players I'm assuming due to the speed and spin of serves they are receiving. Not necessary for club players? Is it similar to the slice backhand difference between pros and club players (more downward for pros vs. straight through for clubbers?)

                          I think this observation and discussion will need a little more time to be researched and flavors to be developed. With that said, Doug's points all make sense and is an awesome analysis of what could lead to a deeper discussion. It's an interesting technical, tactical or idiosyncratic move.

                          Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                          Boca Raton
                          Natural tendency (maybe subconscious) to move towards the direction of the ball. I'm willing to bet many club players do it in some form. I was trained to use the dominate leg to initiate the unweighting or 1-2 step. But frankly, it's hard to say what's best. I am thinking if one wants a forehand, it is easier to move the left foot slightly in front right away.

                          I agree, Kyle. It is worth doing an analysis of tour level returns and split-steps on the first and second serves, in the ad and deuce court, etc. I think for example, Monica Seles did what Nadal does, just a single split.

                          Let's catch up later...or sooner!

                          Doug

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DougEng View Post

                            I agree, Kyle. It is worth doing an analysis of tour level returns and split-steps on the first and second serves, in the ad and deuce court, etc. I think for example, Monica Seles did what Nadal does, just a single split.

                            Let's catch up later...or sooner!

                            Doug
                            Hopefully Sooner. We'll be in touch. Thanks.

                            Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                            Boca Raton

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ok guys if Kyle is right and their is a shift in direction in the split step producing a landing to the left or the right, what does that mean?

                              These guys are in the air or close around the time of the hit. The human response time to record the direction of the ball is a few fractions of a second--so they can't be reading the hit itself since they aren't changing directions in the air before they are landing...

                              If that's true are they reading something prior to the hit, guessing on tendencies, or??

                              In the high speed footage there are more limited numbers of matches but in the regular archive there are more. If you looked at every Fed return how many would he be shifting to one side or the other with the split step landing--and how many times would that be to the side of the oncoming ball?

                              Comment

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