My Serve (slow motion) - Criticism Welcome

[meakinrobert]

Here are a couple of slow motion videos of my serve. Comments and constructive criticism are welcome. I have tried to follow much of the advice of this site.

One problem I have is that although I try to serve from the trophy position I often move my back leg. Quite what is causing this, I'm not sure. Often I think I'm not moving it until I see the video. I'm now wondering if I should try to fix it or just go with it. Although, there seems to be a clear issue with balance causing problems. The trouble is I'm not sure what I should focus on to try and fix it.

Any help is much appreciated.

LINK 1
LINK 2

[stotty]

Thanks for posting your serve...

Here are a couple of slow motion videos of my serve. Comments and constructive criticism are welcome. I have tried to follow much of the advice of this site.

One problem I have is that although I try to serve from the trophy position I often move my back leg. Quite what is causing this, I'm not sure. Often I think I'm not moving it until I see the video. I'm now wondering if I should try to fix it or just go with it. Although, there seems to be a clear issue with balance causing problems. The trouble is I'm not sure what I should focus on to try and fix it.

Any help is much appreciated.

LINK 1
LINK 2

There are a number of things you could work on here but the number one issue to tackle would be your stance. You are way too sideways. You need to align your right foot more behind the left foot. During your serve, both feet end up pointing away from the baseline at you ease in to the trophy position. This is causing serious over rotation, which in turn will cause you timing issues as you try to rotate all the way back again to hit the ball. What you are doing is almost impossible to pull off.

You would be better to opt for a stance more like Agassi. This is a much more doable stance for club players.... and will make a host of other things much easier for you too.

Changing a stance isn't usually too difficult and would be a great place to start before you move on to other issues.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andreagassi/aa_serve/aa_1st_serve/aa_1st_serve_ad/aa_1st_serve_ad.html?AA1stSDeuceRear1.mov

I just know a certain someone on the forum would love to help you if he can spare the time. He is something of a maestro when it comes to the serve.

But if he doesn't pop in to help you, then I will certainly pop back to do so myself...so don't worry.

[bobbyswift]

serve

You would be better with a platform stance. If you continue with pinpoint the timing of when you move the rear foot is very late. Look at Feliciano Lopez when he moves trail leg relative to trophy position. I then would increase knee flexion. Then understand that leg drive should slightly precede racket drop. Bobby

[meakinrobert]

Thank you both for that.

Licensedcoach, I'll drill serving from a position less wide for a while (maybe exaggerating it a bit at the start, before moving wider) and then when that feels okay I'll post another video. I had been trying for something that resembled a Sampras like action, with some conscious differences, ie the racquet would pause at the trophy position rather than keep moving. I was also trying to follow a lot that I'd heard and read on this site, which uses Federer as a model.

The thing I got caught up thinking about is that while Sampras seemed to drive at the ball Federer seems to coil, hold and explode and I wondered if I was mixing things up in a "fish nor fowl" kind of way.

Thanks again for your help and I'll definitely update the thread.

[don_budge]

Real time please...Pop!

Hello there meakinrobert...and thanks for posting your serve. I would very much like to critique your serve but I would like to see it in real time. Your slow motion is masking the weakness in your delivery relative to your setup, backswing and the timing of the toss. What is more important is the ability to stop the video frame by frame or having the ability to drag it through frame by frame. But without seeing it in real time there isn't much that can be said other than what the other two coaches have said.

If possible I would like to see a front view as well...possibly two front views. One with camera about 30 degrees to the left of you serving to the deuce court and one a bit more head on...possibly just to the right of center serving to the ad court. One more thing...in your clip please serve several times and pay attention to your setup as well as your preserve routine. Reshoot the rear view...the lighting is poor.

Let's do this right. You have a lot of work to do but you also have all of the makings of a nice smooth service motion.

I like the comments by the other two coaches by the way...they are definitely hot on the trail.

While you are at it meakinrobert...check this out. Post #4 in this thread.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2332

This is the best venue, other than the archived strokes in tennisplayer.net, that I have seen so far for video analysis. Can you do this? Perhaps mlogarzo can help here. Give him a personal message if you are so inclined.

[don_budge]

don_budge to bottle...come in. Do you copy?

Hey bottle...do me a favor if you would. Post that sequence of drawings of Don Budge's serve that you showed us over in your thread.

Post #1307 in "A New Year's Serve".

Thanks.

[GeoffWilliams]

Reach back more. Coil in a bow more. Drop the racquet down more. Increase your snap back to create faster whip lash. Pronate your forearm forward so your elbow bends after contact like edberg/sampras/becker.

[bottle]

Re # 5

Sure.

[don_budge]

Yep...

Sure.

...those are the ones. Beautiful! Thanks...Johnny Boy aka bottle.

[meakinrobert]

Thank you very much for all the advice. It's very appreciated.

Today was pretty busy at the tennis club, as can be seen in the clips below, so I was in a hurry to get the clips and they're not the best quality (I didn't want to take up a court on my own practicing when there were people wanting to play). However, so as not to waste time I thought there was no harm in posting them until I get better ones.

I've put them on Google docs, which means they can be downloaded and opened in Quicktime for frame-by-frame analysis, if anyone wishes to do so. I tried adding them as attachments but they always seemed to be too big.

I will check out that book excerpt now. Thanks again for taking an interest. I certainly don't want to cut any corners. I'm happy to drill something for as long as it takes. I took up tennis a year ago this month and I'm really enjoying it.


Front Adv
Front Deuce
Rear Adv

[meakinrobert]

Other than the stance issue the first thing that jumps out at me from the Don Budge book is the timing of the weight transfer. He says not to do this until the ball begins its decent whereas I clearly start to transfer the weight forward as soon as the ball leaves my hand.

[don_budge]

The Ingredients of Great Serving...

Other than the stance issue the first thing that jumps out at me from the Don Budge book is the timing of the weight transfer. He says not to do this until the ball begins its decent whereas I clearly start to transfer the weight forward as soon as the ball leaves my hand.

Good. The stance effects the backswing and the backswing has a great impact on the weight transfer. The weight transfer has everything to do with delivering the racquet head to the ball. Keep up the good work. Study the five great service motions below. The devil is in the details.

Take a day to study the following. Think about it a bit. You have a lot of information. You have worked hard to get to the point you're are at now. You've only been playing for a year? Now is the time to put it all together. As it stands now your motion looks "convoluted"...that is the bad news. The good news is that with just a couple of fixes it is going to be one nice fluid motion. All of the ingredients are either there or are attainable with some thought and some work. I have high hopes.

I'm stalling meakinrobert. I'm tired. This weekend I hauled 26 cubic meters of our winter wood into the wood sheds. It was a race against the rain. I won...but at a price. The price? Exhaustion. The only thing this old world understands in the end is hard work. This time I rose to the challenge.

No matter...it gives me time to watch your motion. The real time views give me a sense of the reality of the situation. The slow motion is a bit deceptive. The more that I watch it the more that I get the "feel" of it...it being your motion. Plus you have some homework to do. So watch these videos and try to get a feel for each one. Don Budge, Pete Sampras, Roger Federer and John McEnroe. Each one a great, great server in their own right. In their own time. The question is...what are the elements that they all share in common? Then the problem is how to incorporate those elements into your motion. I'll be back...with your fix.

Here are five generations of great serving below...the evolutionary tree of tennis serving if you will. Any tennis player or tennis coach worth his salt is a student of the game. No true tennis aficionado would be so fool hardy as to discount the influence of past generations. Just one good reason to be a member of this website. John has gone to great lengths to bridge the classic game to the modern game in a meaningful and objective manner. With attitude.


The Evolutionary Tree of Great Serving...

Don Budge...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/donbudge/donbudge_sa.html?DB1stSRear.mov

Richard Gonzales...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

John McEnroe...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_serve/mac_1st_serve/mac_1st_serve.html?Mac1stSDeuceFront1.mov

Pete Sampras...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSDeuceFront2.mov

Roger Federer...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSDeuceFront3.mov

[meakinrobert]

Wow. Great post. Thanks, don_budge. I'll spend some time looking at these videos. Sampras and Federer, I've watched and read a lot about (mostly on this site), the others not at all, except for the obvious clips on television.

I hope you're feeling fully rested and restored soon.

[don_budge]

Fundamentals First...Set-up and Backswing

Ok...let’s have a go at this thing. I think that you we are going to do this in two parts meakinrobert. First thing we are going to do is to get you lined up properly...much as Stotty aka, licensedcoach has suggested. I believe also that bobbyswift is correct in determining that a platform stance is the way to go with you. At your stage of development we need less moving parts. We are going to address your setup and backswing and then I think that we should let you work with that a bit and then move into the forward swing. I believe that with some changes in your setup and your backswing some things should correct themselves more or less automatically in the forward movement.

The forward swing is dependent upon the position after the backswing...the backswing is dependent upon the set-up position.


Lesson I...the Set-up Position and the Backswing

Set-up Position...

Overall your set-up position is pretty darn good. But let’s make a couple of adjustments. I feel that one of the things that a good set-up position does is that it “aims” your structure to your target. Take for example if you were to draw a line at the end of the toes of your feet, the line looks to me as if it may be pointing to the right of the net post. Put your feet in a position so that the line at the end of your toes is pointing directly at your target. This will put your back foot nearly but not quite directly behind your front foot.

When you make this adjustment you will notice that now your left shoulder is pointing in the direction of the left net post. Now as for your racquet...I would like to see your racquet pointed directly at the target where you intend to serve. So now you have created two lines directly at your target. One is the line at then end of your toes and the other is your right arm and your racquet. Loosen and bend that arm just a bit (look at the Budge drawing bottle supplied us with) and your hand should be just a bit higher...let’s say waist high. Loosen up on that grip too...it looks to me as if you are gripping down on the handle pretty hard. On a scale of one to ten in firmness of grip you should be on the light side of five. You do not want any tension in your wrist or forearms at all. You want to swing the racquet not hit the ball so to speak. The arm is going to be making a whip like motion at the ball so everything will need to be fairly relaxed.

I think that your posture looks pretty good and if anything I would like to see your chest just a bit more over your front foot. So line up your feet...line up your racquet and loosen any tension out of your arm and place your weight with your chest over your front foot. Feet are only shoulder width apart...perhaps even slightly less.

Backswing...

Now that we have you set up correctly it looks to me as if the next move should come fairly naturally to you.

I notice that you make a nice little bobbing motion with the arms and racquet head. You seem to raise the head of the racquet with a little movement and then you let both hands FALL towards the ground and perhaps your whole structure will make a little dipping motion as well. Look at John McEnroe’s initial movement on his backswing as he allows both hands to FALL he almost seems to allow his whole structure to descend slightly as he transitions his weight to his back foot.

Notice the line of Roger's racquet in his backswing...he takes the head of his racquet right down the line of his toes.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSDeuceRear1.mov

With the different alignment of your feet this is going to change the shape of your backswing somewhat. Imagine that you have a piece of pencil on the tip of your racquet and with your backswing you are going to draw a line right down the line of your feet and the line is going directly in a straight line away from your target. One thing that each and everyone of these great servers that I submitted video for have in common is that their racquets never get behind them on their backswing. The racquet stays in front of them all the way up into the trophy position. Just by turning your shoulders and letting the racquet drop from your set-up position if you continue the racquet down this line you will arrive in a nice trophy position once your racquet arm has swung up into position. At the top of your backswing your shoulders should pretty much be in line with your feet. You are aiming at your target at this point too.

Two things that I would like to see you retain in this adjusted set-up position and backswing are...number one you swing your arm and racquet structure back in the same position at set-up until you arrive to your trophy position. No changes to the wrist and arm. Swing the whole structure as one piece...as you continue to the top of the backswing.

The biggest fault that I see in your service motion up to this point...assuming that you correct your stance, is that you noticeably speed up your backswing on the way up to the trophy position. So you have some rhythm issues. This is where the platform should change things for you a bit. Without having to do that extra movement with the back foot it should make sense now to take it nice and slow on the upswing of the backswing until you get to the top and then the racquet should naturally just fall behind you.

This is going to alter the height of your toss too. You will be tossing the ball now only a decimeter over the height that you wish to strike it at. Your hands move together pretty nicely and the cadence is “down together and up together”. With this set-up and backswing from a platform stance I would like to see your ball toss at about 12.30 or 1 o’clock and about 1 1/2’ to 2’ into the court.

I think that these adjustments are going to have some interesting influence on your forward swing. I suggest that you go to work on these...perhaps submit a video to see if we are on the same page regarding your set-up and backswing and then we can go from there. Sound ok with you? We can make any minor adjustments in your set-up and backswing going forwards.

Any questions...feel free to ask.

[jbill]

The toes lining up

don_budge,

First let me say that I appreciate your instruction on serving. In a previous thread a couple of months ago I seriously read through your analysis of a particular amateur's serving motion. I don't remember his name, but it made me think about my own serving motion. I learned two things in particular that have helped me improve my motion.

1) In my set-up I was beginning with my weight already on my back foot. When I changed to begin with my weight on my front foot my rhythm immediately improved.

2) My racquet arm wasn't going up the same time as my tossing arm. In other words, my hands weren't going down and up together. My racquet arm was lagging too much in reaching the trophy position. My tossing arm was up while my racquet arm was still down. This made it almost impossible for me to have enough time for a consistent racquet drop. I never felt like I had enough time to let the racquet drop behind me. I felt like I was always rushing my motion and consequently my ball striking was very inconsistent. Sometimes there was time for my racquet to drop and other times not.

So when I changed my set-up to begin with my weight forward, rocked my weight back while both hands went down and up together, everything got better. For the first time I actually felt like I had time to let the racquet drop behind me and then go up after my tossed ball.

So don_budge, I thank you. I have always enjoyed the serving motion, but now I am enjoying it much more.

Now I want to say something else as a point in teaching. I think you need to clarify something you are saying about the positioning of the feet in the serve set-up that I find to be ambiguous. And that is the following: "put your feet in a position so that the line at the end of your toes is pointing directly at your target." Which line? One can find various lines there.

Now I studied how your model of Roger Federer was lining up his feet, (and I actually was already doing this correctly) so I could see the correct position, but I still don't see how those toes are aiming at your target when serving into the deuce court. The Ad court, yes. The toes seem to point in that direction, but not the deuce court. Now your reference of the shoulders pointing to the target when the feet are positioned correctly for the serving in the deuce court, yes. That I can see. The shoulders do point that way when you bring your rear foot up more closely behind your front foot. But that of the toes lining up? I don't get it. Now if you look at Pancho Gonzales" foot positioning in his set-up for the deuce court, yes, I think you can say his toes may be pointing more directly at his target in the deuce court. His back foot is out in front of his front foot on the baseline.

So anyways don_budge, there you have it. I realize describing stuff like this is not easy. I know. I once wrote a guide for teachers to teach Spanish using song in the classroom and I was very aware of trying to remove any possible ambiguity in my descriptions. It is much easier to show someone and demonstrate in person.

Nonetheless, I certainly appreciate what you are trying to do.

jbill