My Serve (slow motion) - Criticism Welcome

[don_budge]

Just a couple of things...under the microscope of Sherlock Holmes.

You've done amazingly well in a short space of time. Rome wasn't built in a day....and good serves never are either. Your new stance is a vast improvement, and over rotation is less of an issue than it was.

Too many cooks always spoil the broth so I'm going to let don_budge lead the way to comment on your progress and advise you on what to focus on most next.

Never hesitate or feel embarrassed to post your clips. No coach expects overnight miracles, and you shouldn't either. I am really impressed with your progress and determination to improve your serve. Great stuff, Robert.

Yeah...isn't that something Watson? Good work meakinrobert! Just a couple of things here in the setup position and we may just see a more fluid motion all by itself. Why get complicated if there is a simple fix?

I just wonder what you saw Stotty but I will go first as you have so gentlemanly suggested that I do. Thank you for your consideration.

Congratulations Robert...you are halfway home. In fact you just may be slipping the key into the door. The platform stance adjustment is a complete success in my estimation. Perhaps you should have submitted a video a bit earlier as you accomplished some really good stuff but with a couple of real small adjustments you could be knocking on the door. Really good though...I can hardly get over the improved rhythm and aesthetic improvements to your service motion. Your shoulder rotation is excellent. By aligning your feet in this manner you have restricted your rotation to what comes naturally for you...it's tailor fitted!

The Position of the Racquet and Arm Structure in the Set-up

But before going into the forward motion please just consider these minor adjustments. I see that you picked up on my comment about the Budge starting position and now I would like to see you move that position halfway between the Budge position and the Federer position. The tip of the racquet pointing directly at your target. By moving the starting position up higher you really give the impression of initiating the swing with a drop and you continue with that drop and lift all of the way to the top of the backswing. I like the "bobbing" of the racquet to get the whole thing started. This is a huge improvement. You have lost that accelerating movement in the upswing of your backswing.

The Continental Grip goes Eastern Backhand

It was a stroke of genius to ask to see your grip...if I do say so myself. Looking at your grip I am saying to myself...continental forehand. So I would like to see you shift the "V" in the thumb and finger to the middle of that left side bevel of the racquet. That is perhaps a turn of only an 1/8 or a 1/4 of an inch counterclockwise...but it is going to have a big impact on the overall scope of things. As it is now your hand is just a bit too much on top of your racquet and this is preventing you from really extending to hit the ball as high as you can reach...which in turn prevents the wrist in maximizing it's input in the motion. It is also inhibiting your racquet drop behind you somewhat.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSAdRear.mov

In this rear view it a perfect vantage point to observe the role of the wrist throughout the backswing of John Yandell’s model, Roger Federer. Notice how the palm remains down through the entirety of the backswing. Around click number forty you can really see how this is true. You can see that Roger preserves the integrity of his arm and racquet structure clear through click 52 or 53 before the structure begins to “free fall” behind his back. This is a great illustration of the roll of the wrist in the backswing...as it passively does what the positioning of the body and turning of the torso has dictated that it do. If your grip is just to the forehand side of a “neutral” serving grip this motion is going to be somewhat inhibited and your wrist will lose some of it's potential in your swing.

Notice too the slight difference in the racquet face at the top of the backswing of the Roger Federer serve (click #50) and your own at the top of your backswing. The face of your racquet is just slightly more open than that of Federer’s. I would estimate that the 1/8 or 1/4 inch turning of the grip towards the backhand side from the continental would alter your position to that of his. Hmmm....this could just make all the difference in your fluidity. The big fluidity issue in your motion is that your racquet face is just a bit too open at impact as well...you are fighting yourself against a grip that is just a bit to strong in this case.

The passive nature of the wrist is a wonder to behold for the next 6 clicks as the racquet has fallen to it’s lowest point behind his back.

In the setup position I want both of those arm to be really relaxed and loose. Total absence of tension. Go right from the bobbing motion into your backswing. Only enough tension in the racquet arm to maintain the integrity of the arm and racquet structure throughout the backswing. Make these adjustments and play with it for a bit then repost ASAP. You are hot on the trail and not a moment to be lost!

[don_budge]

Oscar Wegner on the Serve from Scratch.

meakinrobert...here is some somewhat related stuff on the serve. In the Oscar Wegner video he starts to talk about the elementary concept of service grip. It is quite interesting that your grip issue is quite an elementary one compared to the rather sophisticated nature of your swing as a whole.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2023&highlight=oscar+wegner+serve

See that guy in post #6...that is me in a former life. But the ultra relaxation of the wrist and the rest of the motion makes this "racquet drop" position possible.

[bobbyswift]

I would lower the toss. Excessive pause at trophy position. Core problem is seen to me at maximal external rotation. Your racket drop appears very minimal.

[meakinrobert]

Thank you again for the advice and encouragement. Today I tried it out the first post by don_budge. I haven't practiced since reading further (that's a great photograph, by the way, don_budge; amazing racquet drop). I want to read that thread in depth.

Pointing the tip of the racquet at the target, instead of bringing it up quite so high felt more natural and an improvement. I wanted to be sure I'm understanding the advice about the grip correctly so I've posted three more photographs below showing what I understand the eastern backhand to mean. I found that serving with this grip created more topspin. I could also feel it a little more in my arm.

[don_budge]

Spin to win...

Thank you again for the advice and encouragement. Today I tried it out the first post by don_budge. I haven't practiced since reading further (that's a great photograph, by the way, don_budge; amazing racquet drop). I want to read that thread in depth.

Pointing the tip of the racquet at the target, instead of bringing it up quite so high felt more natural and an improvement. I wanted to be sure I'm understanding the advice about the grip correctly so I've posted three more photographs below showing what I understand the eastern backhand to mean. I found that serving with this grip created more topspin. I could also feel it a little more in my arm.

Absolutely it will create more spin. And the grip looks fine now...is the "V" in the middle of that side bevel now? You can feel it more in your arm and you can feel the head of the racquet more. Your wrist should feel more "alive" now. More engaged. Take a few swings now and get the feel for it. Don't swing out of your shoes but concentrate on a nice slow backswing, loading up and then letting it all go. Feel that racquet drop behind you before you press the pedal to the metal. Then turn back towards the ball and let it go. Try it at 85%...see how that feels. Repost the motion soon. Looking forwards to seeing the results.

I think that the grip adjustment along with the revised setup with the swing morphing right out of the bobbing motion is going to take on a more polished look. Try aiming some spin serves into the right hander's forehand in the deuce court and some up the middle in the ad court. The topspin is a great sign for you meakinrobert...I noticed that you were not hitting many practice serves into the net from your previous videos. With additional spin this is only going to make things better.

When I am teaching students the serve I tell them that the whole idea is to spin the ball. To hit the ball flatter with less spin you can sort of refer to that Oscar Wegner video to get the idea of the wrist position for a flatter delivery. It's a pretty simple and fundamental idea and he keeps it pretty simple. Try to hit some flatter serves up the middle in the deuce court and to the outside corner of the ad court. Keep up the good work.

[stotty]

Stotty's thoughts...

I just wonder what you saw Stotty but I will go first as you have so gentlemanly suggested that I do. Thank you for your consideration.

What Stotty sees is a more orthodox serve. Robert has gone from a hopeless set up that would have doomed his serve for life to a more orthodox set up which opens up the possibility for great improvement.

Yes the action is a little jerky and lacks fluidity, but with repetitive practice things usually smooth out as the motion becomes more efficient. The main thing is to be practicing the correct motion. A favourite of mine is to get students to shadow stroke the correct swing without a ball two or three times before they serve for real. It's easy to shadow stroke fluently, and done regularly it can translate its way in to real thing.

[don_budge]

Patiently waiting...imagining the results. The Forward Swing and Follow Through.

I would lower the toss. Excessive pause at trophy position. Core problem is seen to me at maximal external rotation. Your racket drop appears very minimal.

The Forward Swing

So we had a bit of a discussion about the set-up position and after fiddling around a bit...well we're still waiting to see the next results. Then we had a little discussion about the wrist and still we are anxiously awaiting the results.

Well...it's normal. People have jobs...and responsibilities. Ok...I can't wait. I wanted to see the next video before advising on the forward motion. But ok...here goes anyways. I have a picture in my mind what has happened without even seeing the next video. I have seen a bit how this student works so now I apply the power of "anticipation".

But before I do I just want to throw something out there to my fellow tennis coaches. Repetitive motions...repetitive events. Only so many things can happen on the tennis court and after spending so much time out there it becomes another sense. A sixth sense...or seventh? Like the yesterday...a student on the other side of the net slammed a ball that was coming right at my head and I was turned towards my baseline speaking to another student. But without seeing the ball I heard the blast of the ball against the strings and something told me to duck and I did...trusting my instinct...and the ball whizzed just by my head. Was it luck? Coincidence? Somehow I knew to duck...anyways.

So I turn to meakinrobert's serve motion knowing the instructions that I have given and knowing how he interpreted them before...with the initial analysis. And bobbyswift offers the comment about "maximal external rotation" and I am certain that he means maximum external rotation even though I am not dead certain what that means. But he is correct in my estimation about the lower ball toss and this business of the racquet drop. Somehow I am believing that my observation about our students wrist is going to make a difference here on both comments. The wristier service motion is going to move the racquet head much faster through the air therefore reducing the need for the extra lift on the toss. A decimeter over the tip of the outstretched racquet is generally enough...just a bit of decent before the ball actually starts to gather too much speed in free fall.

But it will now be the location of the toss that is going to also be of importance. Of course it depends upon the type of spin that you will impart on the ball but generally speaking for a right hander it will be out and up at one o'clock. Robert....when you throw the ball up to the correct spot you will try to make a swing around a very large beach ball...that is, you will imagine that the ball is much larger than it actually is and finish your swing sweeping to the other side of your body. To go up and over the beach ball you are going to have to be fully extended...like I was so many years ago.

The Follow Through

Another thing that you might fool around with a bit is to serve as if you are serving and volleying...even though I know that nobody does that anymore. Serve as if you are headed towards the net. But the forward motion is an important aspect of the follow through motion as bobbyswift is alluding to in his maximum external rotation comment I believe. So the combination of trying to take that racquet head around a much larger sphere than the tennis ball coupled with the leg drive propelling you into the court should take your forward swing in the right direction. One big difference in the modern service motions of today and the service motions of the past is that the motions of the past were designed and constructed to carry the player to the net behind the momentum of the follow through. This of course is a huge asset in fluidity...let the momentum carry you in the direction that it is going and not to just stop abruptly and retreat backwards...behind the baseline.

If you are relaxed and let that racquet fall down behind you and you have the patience to feel that before starting the acceleration with the leg thrust, body rotation and then the throwing of the racquet head around the ball you should experience something akin to this maximum external rotation and the feeling that the racquet is catapulting out of the loop of a rollercoaster ride.

Anyways...I was just imagining the progress you are making. I am willing to bet that you are ironing out some of the kinks that were between you and the fluid motion that you were seeking.

[don_budge]

Figure Eights...ala tennis_chiro

Then soon you will be ready for tennis_chiro to appear with his figure eight videos. Fluid motion...gravity based formula.

[bobbyswift]

It would be beneficial to video your toss height to see how much your letting ball drop. A good average would be around 2 feet. If your preference is for lower try 8 to 10 inches drop. It appears to me that yours could be dropping 6 to 8 based on how much time you have in trophy position.

[tennis_chiro]

Great Candidate for Fig8's

Then soon you will be ready for tennis_chiro to appear with his figure eight videos. Fluid motion...gravity based formula.

I think Robert is a great candidate for doing a little work with Figure8's, but he also needs to work on his basic snap at the ball that is the root of all the discussion about whether he gets deep enough on his racket drop.

Like many players, he's placed great emphasis on getting leg drive and power before he's mastered the fundamental snap at the ball. That complicates the task of blending it all in to a simple fluid motion. The changes and progress he's made are great, especially the change in the stance along the lines don_budge has been encouraging him, but I think he's got to get a little more comfortable with the basic snap/internal rotation that supplies the "pop" to the serve. So...

The "Burp" is demonstrated at 7 minutes into this video

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Don-Brosseau-Serve

The idea is to emphasize the internal rotation of the arm during the service "snap". The trick is to get at the racket shaft to move along the plane that encompasses the contact point and the target and the starting point of the racket at the bottom of the "pro drop". (Takes 3 points to define a plane.) In the video, you can see that my student, Seiji, is starting off with the racket moving too much to the right. You can see Seiji starting to "get it" about 8:50.
At 9:30 we started to do what I call the "Bubble", which begins to approach a Gonzales type backswing. I'm not advocating that in the long run for Seiji (or for Robert Meakin), but you can see at about 11:30 where Seiji started to get his racket onto the plane I am referring to above. His racket has to swing from the Trophy position down and to the right to get on that plane to enable him to get a deeper "pro drop" position and be able to swing with all his potential power to the target.

Longer review of the serve and some of the other drills including the Figure 8's is at this link:

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Pro-Coach-Don-Brosseau-Serve

This clip is with a much less experienced player who was better off with a Gonzales type backswing. The work that is demonstrated on the Fig 8 beginning at about 5:00 would be excellent work for Robert Meakin. Understand that these drills are deemphasizing the leg drive. I like to see control of the motion and full mastery of the service snap and timing before students start jumping into the court. So I insist they be able to demonstrate hitting serves without any steps whatsoever. Obviously, this is not the final destination!

In this video Sarah demonstrates what I mean by the "Burp" at 8:10. At 9:20, I demonstrate the "Big Burp" or the "Bubble". And again a little clearer at 11:10. There's a little more explanation from a rear view beginning at 12:00.

On my youtube channel, GlobalTennisDC, you can see a lot more videos that have been used to back up various other posts. In particular, Robert should look at the four clips on the CompSnap, FeetForwardFig8FromDeuce, BasicFig8FromDeuce, DropToSlotFromRear, and DonB_ServeFig8_Side_7_05_2006.

Good luck. Savor and enjoy the journey!

don

PS Please forgive the low audio. These clips were not planned productions, just reviews that were taking place in the course of normal lessons I was giving and we were able to record them. At some point I'd like to do something more formally, but I kind of like the low key nature of the interaction with the student actually going through the learning process as we recorded it.

[meakinrobert]

Thanks again, all. This is great. I'm really looking forward to trying it all out. I'll post a video soon, before I even feel that I've got everything, just as a kind of work in progress.

Time is a little limited as to when I can practice. The main problem is the light. In the UK the days are shortening. I also have a tendency to want to take things slow and so probably drill things a bit too much before posting again.

I'm definitely looking forward to drilling the tempo motion referred to by tennis_chiro, as demonstrated in the 2nd clip. I agree that would be very useful and it looks to me like it touches upon what don_budge refers to when he mentions visualising a beach ball.

Its interesting to hear about de-emphasising the leg drive as that was something prominent in my mind just about every time I went to serve. In particular, what I've read in the biomechanics section about the leg drive occurring at the same time as the racquet drop. It was something I always tried to do (and never seemed to pull off) and it likely stopped me sorting the more important issue of the tempo and rhythm, first. So, this bit rings very true:

Like many players, he's placed great emphasis on getting leg drive and power before he's mastered the fundamental snap at the ball. That complicates the task of blending it all in to a simple fluid motion.

Thanks again, and I'll post soon. I promise.