My Serve (slow motion) - Criticism Welcome

[meakinrobert]

This is very helpful and detailed. Thanks, don_budge. I'll spend some time practicing this. I think I understand everything your saying, as it seems pretty clear and practical. Once I feel like I'm comfortable with these changes, or if I hit any obstacles, I'll post another video.

Thanks again for your help. I felt like I'd hit a bit of a brick wall with my serve. I could feel that it was wrong but couldn't pin it down. Its good to have something to work on.

Robert

[don_budge]

The line...at the end of your feet

don_budge,

Now I want to say something else as a point in teaching. I think you need to clarify something you are saying about the positioning of the feet in the serve set-up that I find to be ambiguous. And that is the following: "put your feet in a position so that the line at the end of your toes is pointing directly at your target." Which line? One can find various lines there.

jbill

It is a bit tricky to describe motion with words. Seeing as the devil is in the details...well you obviously get it. Thanks for the great question.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSDeuceCourtLevelRear1.mov

Let's see if this helps. The line at the end of the feet is of course an imaginary line. The line that I imagine that Roger is forming with his feet here in his set-up position looks to be pointing somewhere in the vicinity of the right net post even though he is serving into the deuce court.

So if Roger were to form the line that I am advocating he would move his back foot to be right behind his front foot when serving into the deuce court or even slightly in front of it. When serving to the ad court his set-up would be very similar to what it is now...maybe his back foot would be a tad more forward.

There are a couple of reasons that I advocate this set-up...particularly to beginners and intermediates. Number one is to give them a sense of aiming. When coupled with the racquet being on the same line it should give the student a sense of being lined up and it also makes them to consciously pick a target.

Another reason is one of quality control. If the feet are in the same position relative to the target every single time then the movements might find themselves to be under control more often. This setup may inhibit one's power just a bit but what I am going to emphasize in the beginning and through the developmental stages is control. I know that runs counter culture to the current paradigm where shock and awe is everything.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention jbill and pointing that discrepancy out...I always appreciate the constructive nature of your writing and welcome your feedback. Always positive...I would bet that you are a very good teacher yourself. By the way...the fact that something that I may have written helped you thrills me to no end. Thanks.

[don_budge]

meakinrobert...please take a look here.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2177&highlight=rollercoaster

I put this thread together from some other posts that the guys and I worked on together here on the forum.

Take a look a post number six...talking about the gravitational nature of the use of the racquet head when comparing it to a rollercoaster car.

I hope that the others chime in here as their comments always provoke more thought and the threads get richer as a result.

Practice this set-up and backswing in the mirror if you can too. It helps to see what you look like when you are actually in the position to feel it. Video is one thing...reality quite another. You want to develop a feel for your motion.

The backswing is initiated by dropping the racquet head and a turn of the shoulders. The racquet gently "swings" up into position to drop behind your back. In the Don Budge drawings it would be position #3. Notice how his shoulders are practically on line with his feet now...perhaps just a bit past as he may just be going forwards a bit here. But at this point the body is resetting its aiming mechanism again...getting all of the ducks in a row. Here the big key is tossing the ball to the correct spot.

Notice how the Budge backswing stays on the line at the end of his feet clear through drawing #3. The racquet is always in front of his body until it goes to make the drop behind him. He actually gave me probably the most valuable coaching that I ever received with regard to my serve during the summers of 1972 and 1973. His was the most beautiful service motion that I have ever personally seen. I saw Richard Gonzales play one time but I was too young to remember anything about his motion. Budge at the age of 57 could practically knock the racquet out of my hands with his easy flowing motion.

[meakinrobert]

I had noticed the difference in foot placement too, as mentioned by jbill, but as don_budge mentions, I'd assumed it was more of an "advanced" technique. Or maybe, an evolved technique might be a better way to describe it.

And, wow, I had no idea you'd had coaching from the man himself. Something to treasure and thanks for sharing.

What I'm finding helpful in this thread is that the various concepts are all joined up and work towards something as a whole, rather than just being a series of marks to hit.

[don_budge]

Evolving from fundamentals...and driving the golf ball.

I had noticed the difference in foot placement too, as mentioned by jbill, but as don_budge mentions, I'd assumed it was more of an "advanced" technique. Or maybe, an evolved technique might be a better way to describe it.

Great observation with regards to the evolutionary process. What I am advocating to you are strict fundamentals. Your motion seems to have been an attempt to copy that of Roger Federer's. There are some real dangers in attempting to copy the motion of a professional.

Professional's have hit millions of balls in practice and in competition. Somehow they find the movements that are most easily reproduced in their own personal comfort zone.

Even though Roger Federer has what I consider to be the best service motion in modern tennis...as John Yandell obviously does...there is one anomaly that I have a difficult time getting past...one idiosyncratic move that sort of distorts the fundamentals. That would be his set-up position and the way that he starts his motion from a position where his racquet has already descended into a dropped position.

For a beginner or intermediate player to use this particular facet of his motion may prove hazardous to the overall timing of the motion. For instance, in your motion you have that acceleration in your backswing on the way up in the upswing whereas I feel that part of the motion should feel lazy and unhurried.

So I feel that you are absolutely correct when you say that evolution plays a role in every players overall approach to everything. The foot position is one that most players feel more comfortable with the back foot a little farther back and this could encourage more rotation of the shoulders.

But it is sort of like driving the golf ball. Many golfers will try to twist themselves beyond their comfort zone turning their shoulders in the hunt for more distance. But as a golfer...and I didn't take that up until the age of forty...I preferred to dial in to an exact degree of shoulder turn in order to achieve maximum control. I prefer to keep it in the fairway rather than risk it all for a few measly yards of distance.

[don_budge]

One more thing...The initial move is also a gravitational pull on the racquet head.

I continue to look at your video. It's amazing how much you can glean with the stop action option.

Let me see if I can explain this to you...meakinrobert. When you are in your initial set-up position your first move is to transfer you weight back to your back foot...which is a good move in itself. But let's think in terms of connectivity...that is, everything is connected. Every move that you make in this service motion is going to have relevance to the racquet head. So you make this weight transfer backwards and your racquet has done what? Nada. Zilch.

So at the same time that you make this transfer which should be more effectively done with a turning of the shoulders than a lateral move backwards or at least the two movements are done simultaneously...the racquet head should begin to drop with this movement as well. Everything is dropping and moving together. Look at the McEnroe video...see how it appears that he is sort of descending as a whole as his weight transfers backwards. You want that racquet head to be in motion from the first motion of your being...that way you will not have to use that acceleration in the upswing part of your backswing.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

Even though Roger begins his backswing from a somewhat abbreviated position...his racquet head has actually simulated dropping into position where your racquet head is still in a rather upright position when your hand is in a position relative to his.

Does that make any sense to you? It's a backswing...and you want that racquet head to swing back and up into position at the top. You want the weight of the racquet head determining the arc and behavior of the racquet head. Gravity. Rollercoaster car.

[meakinrobert]

Yes, it does make sense. Tonight I was able to practice the advice given me by don_budge for an hour before it got too dark to see.

The thing that felt so much better, even though I obviously need to practice it more, is the backswing. What I noticed is the amount of tension in my arm that kept stopping me from doing it well. When I was able to relax it I found that the racquet drop felt deeper and more effortless. Something I hadn’t felt before.

I have a question about the backswing: The backswing and the ball toss happen together and I think part of the problem I need to fix is letting the racquet arm mirror the ball toss arm in tension. Should the ball toss arm have a similar languorous feel to it or is it preferable for there to be a mental divide between them, so that the shoulder muscles feel active in the left arm tossing the ball, while the muscles in the right shoulder are very relaxed as the roller coaster path is traced?

I found it easier to adopt the new setup when serving into the ad court (my preferred target anyway, for whatever reason). I found that the unit turn that accompanied the backswing felt more pronounced when serving into the deuce court (I had more of a turn to make). Does that sound right? Or should I be a bit more closed? I felt like letting the racquet fall at the start of the turn would mean my legs would get in the way.

The point made about foundations felt very relevant. I felt like I had a good foundation and was more focused with this setup.

One last thing: This may be getting way too far ahead but I thought it worth mentioning. At the moment I allow the racquet to pause at the top of the trophy position. I did try learning to serve with a fluid motion a la Budge and Sampras but I could never get it to work. It is something I’d like to try as I love the look of such a fluid motion. Would you recommend trying this at a later date or is it something to think about now?

I can’t thank you enough for your help. I can tell it will make a very real and positive difference.

Robert

[stotty]

I have a question about the backswing: The backswing and the ball toss happen together and I think part of the problem I need to fix is letting the racquet arm mirror the ball toss arm in tension. Should the ball toss arm have a similar languorous feel to it or is it preferable for there to be a mental divide between them, so that the shoulder muscles feel active in the left arm tossing the ball, while the muscles in the right shoulder are very relaxed as the roller coaster path is traced?

Robert

Now this is a good question. And it shows you're really thinking things through. I find that very encouraging, and I'm sure don_budge will find it encouraging too. Coaches want their students to probe for themselves...not many do. It's great to have a student with brain cells.

When I serve there is no mental divide. The throwing arm maybe working against gravity but it certainly doesn't feel that way. The arm going up feels almost as weightless as the one going down. It's all about rhythm. Rhythm makes everything effortless...makes everything work together.

You're in great hands with don_budge. Patience is key...taking great care to perfect the set up and initiate the serve better will stand you in great stead. Practice mentally whenever you can...play the serve over and over in your mind. This is a great way to practice, believe it or not.

You'll get there. Just keep at it.

[bobbyswift]

Love the hard fun work your doing. If it were I making a mental list of the changes your trying I would start with the feet, then adopt the platform stance lower the toss significantly and then re do video and see what the backswing does on its own. Then plan with the great advice people have given. In other words start from ground up with your strategy for improvement.

[don_budge]

Relaxation...a huge key

The thing that felt so much better, even though I obviously need to practice it more, is the backswing. What I noticed is the amount of tension in my arm that kept stopping me from doing it well. When I was able to relax it I found that the racquet drop felt deeper and more effortless. Something I hadn’t felt before.

Robert

Notice in the drawings of the Don Budge serve how relaxed he looks in drawing #1. See that little play in his arm at the right elbow. Look at drawing #2...that little bit of play in his arm is an indication of how relaxed and how little musculature effort is a factor in a smooth and friction free motion. By the time you get to drawing #3 you get the feeling that something big is about to occur. Notice too that the play in his right arm reappears...nothing conscious. Just allowing for a relaxed swing. You need this sort of play throughout your whole being. All of Don Budge's motion is accomplished with relatively effortless motion...much like a good golf swing.

The important thing to note is how similar the arm and racquet structure look in drawings #1 and #3. They are virtually identical which leads me to believe that he is truly "swinging" that racquet up into position. The backswing is truly a swing and should be thought of as such.

Huge thanks to bottle for supplying these drawings...priceless!

You have stumbled onto the next step of the "effortless" racquet drop. Actually you haven't stumbled upon it at all...I have lead you there by merely organizing the things that you were already doing quite well. It was just a little convoluted. I frequently say and think upon my own service motion that I anticipate this feeling when the racquet is "dropping" behind me. Very good...Robert. Of all of your observations this is the singularly most important and it is vital to the next step.

[don_budge]

Epiphanies...next video please.

Yes, it does make sense. Tonight I was able to practice the advice given me by don_budge for an hour before it got too dark to see.

One last thing: This may be getting way too far ahead but I thought it worth mentioning. At the moment I allow the racquet to pause at the top of the trophy position. I did try learning to serve with a fluid motion a la Budge and Sampras but I could never get it to work. It is something I’d like to try as I love the look of such a fluid motion. Would you recommend trying this at a later date or is it something to think about now?

Robert

Yep...good work my Man. Way to man up. Critical thinking and practice. A cunning combination. The only thing this old world understands in the end is hard work. At the same time if you go about it in an organized fashion windfall profits are attainable. It's never too early to start imagining the final picture...the goal. The light at the end of the tunnel. That jackpot at the end of the rainbow. Dreaming's for free.

All good questions...all good questions deserve equally good answers. Sometimes more than one. So let's continue to sort this thing out. Your questions are now delving into the forward swing...although the one about your toss is interesting but of little consequence at the moment. We will deal with that later...but I think you are going to answer a lot of your own questions once we see your next video and discuss the forward swing.

For now...we are very happy to get you in position to go forwards. "Get in position" is probably the thing that I most frequently say on the tennis court with a tennis student. I say it often to people that I know when we are talking about life. You want to do something? Get in position. You want to hit a great serve? Get in position.

It doesn't surprise me that you had some instant epiphanies about your backswing which of course lead to some intelligent questions about the way forwards. Your comment about the racquet dropping is very encouraging. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. One step at a time. The next video please. Take your time. Practice this backswing and set-up. The more comfortable you are with these elements the easier it will be to ease you into and through the forward swing.

We can comment on your set-up, your backswing and the questions that you have when we see once again what we are working with. Show me your grip in the next video by the way.

Three views please:

Rear view...camera just to the right of you and make allowance for the toss.
Side view...make sure we can see the height of your toss.
Front view...more head on and a little closer. Try to get you feet more in the bottom of the screen.

I have a feeling that things have changed. We have concluded our first lesson.

Lesson II...Transitioning into the Forward Swing, The Forward Swing and the Follow Through.

[meakinrobert]

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone. I will spend the next few days practicing whenever I can and then post the new videos.

[don_budge]

The Don Budge Service Motion...My Teaching Model

It's a lot to think and talk about all at once. The big alternative is between a Beckerish left leg off the court (in place or kicking back) or a braced left leg (slightly bent with foot now flat-- solid, in other words) as in drawing # five of the Don Budge serve.

My forward serves, as I suggested, all start with back leg coil. Balance and body weight are maintained on back foot for a longer time than in most other methods including Don Budge to the best of my knowledge.

John Yandell has chosen the Roger Federer service motion as his teaching model. One can understand that seeing as it is afterall 2013. If one were to tout the service motion of the man who won the Grand Slam of tennis traveling by sea in 1937 you just might want to retire that man to some remote piece of earth out in the woods someplace.

This is undoubtably the best service motion that I have ever personally seen in my life. Even though it was some 40 years ago the sheer beauty and smoothness that belied the incredible power and heaviness of the delivery will never leave my mind. When I see something perfect...it never escapes me. I get happy every single time you post this lovely set of drawings.

I have a couple of issues with Federer's serve. Number one is the way that he addresses the ball in the set-up position with his racquet already descended halfway to the bottom of his backswing. Notice how Budge has his racquet poised just about chest high taking dead aim at his target. From this position the racquet is in position to "swing" down and up with the racquet head gaining more momentum and speed in its downward path to the bottom of the backswing. If you stressing effortless...you must let gravity do the lion's share of the work and that is precisely what he did when he dropped the racquet from the two fingers that are supporting it in his left hand.

I remember him telling me about this idea of his...letting the racquet head fall to initiate the motion followed shortly with a methodical turning of the shoulders taking the path of the racquet head down the line of the feet clear to the back fence...then with a lifting sensation out of the bottom of the backswing. Chest to the sky. Hands reaching to the sky.

This is the model that I use. I know that it is old and antiquated but as a teaching model it leaves nothing to be desired in terms of simplicity, efficiency and being fundamentally correct (FC). I teach it right down to those two fingers that are supporting the racquet with his left hand. Look at the line of his toes set up to the target. Look at the path of his backswing down the line of his toes. See how the arm and racquet structure at the top of the backswing is identical to the position at the set-up. These are what you call fundamentals. I insist that my students adhere to them to a certain point. I'm like Harry Hopman in this regard.

I saw Gonzales serve once in person when I was just a boy. It must have been in the '60s. The 1960's wiseguys. I was too young to remember anything except a very big man walking like a panther by me in the aisle of the old Olympia arena in Detroit.

But Budge I remember vividly. I remember his voice saying my name. He was such a kind person. He was firm in his resolve about things...you can imagine, but there was a certain gentleness about him that let anyone understand that came into contact with him that his greatness meant only so much to him. He was not above talking to the common man. Truly it was as if he walked out of that Rudyard Kipling poem "If".

I never tire of seeing these drawings...or using them to highlight what I am trying to teach. Drawings over video? Art over science? Life can surprise you...sometimes. In the natural scheme of things.

[meakinrobert]

Update

Below are some new videos. I hesitated posting them because I can see problems myself: The action is not as fluid as I'd hoped and I'm still over rotating my shoulders. However, since its been some time since I last posted and because there may be other things I'm not seeing I thought it a good idea to post the clips anyway, especially since I have been practicing this whenever I have the time.

Once again, thank you to all (especially don_budge) who have responded so far.

Robert

Link to downloadable videos

[stotty]

Below are some new videos. I hesitated posting them because I can see problems myself: The action is not as fluid as I'd hoped and I'm still over rotating my shoulders. However, since its been some time since I last posted and because there may be other things I'm not seeing I thought it a good idea to post the clips anyway, especially since I have been practicing this whenever I have the time.

Once again, thank you to all (especially don_budge) who have responded so far.

Robert

Link to downloadable videos

Robert,

You've done amazingly well in a short space of time. Rome wasn't built in a day....and good serves never are either. Your new stance is a vast improvement, and over rotation is less of an issue than it was.

Too many cooks always spoil the broth so I'm going to let don_budge lead the way to comment on your progress and advise you on what to focus on most next.

Never hesitate or feel embarrassed to post your clips. No coach expects overnight miracles, and you shouldn't either. I am really impressed with your progress and determination to improve your serve. Great stuff, Robert.