Using the resources of Tennis Player to Construct and improve one's game

[jasonfrausto]

Jonathan,

I think you hit the nail on the head in every area! Continue tweaking and improving.

[stotty]

Great work, Jason. Extraordinarily generous what you have done here.

Jonathan, you've been answering a lot of your own questions right from the start. You seem a little insecure of your judgement and are looking for confirmation for others. Mostly you don't need it. Discovering the game for yourself is by far the best way to learn.

A couple of things:

1. Your conservative grip does make it a little tough to carry out the ATP forehand you are looking for. It looks like you're having to awkwardly manipulate the hand/wrist to achieve this during some stages of the backswing. Tweaking the grip seems a good move here. Your left arm stretch may be slightly on the high side.

2. As you have stated yourself, the key thing is your footwork. Your base is too narrow on some shots. Opt for a wider base with your feet and sink down a little more. Set up better, too, if you can. don_budge's "three lines" spring to mind here.

3. Trying to micro manage every aspect of a stroke is pretty near impossible and tends to lead to players becoming "hung up" about their strokes. There comes a point when players need to forget their strokes and do battle with what they have. If I were you I would concentrate on making the basic things better, then concern yourself more with the effectiveness of your strokes rather than imitating in micro detail some lofty role model. That would be Federer to date by the look of it.

Once again, thank you to Jason for such a wonderful effort in trying to help you.

NB. I never liked Mardy's racket tip pointing so far forward so late in the backswing. He gets away with it...most club players don't.

[jryle1]

Great work, Jason. Extraordinarily generous what you have done here.

Jonathan, you've been answering a lot of your own questions right from the start. You seem a little insecure of your judgement and are looking for confirmation for others. Mostly you don't need it. Discovering the game for yourself is by far the best way to learn.

A couple of things:

1. Your conservative grip does make it a little tough to carry out the ATP forehand you are looking for. It looks like you're having to awkwardly manipulate the hand/wrist to achieve this during some stages of the backswing. Tweaking the grip seems a good move here. Your left arm stretch may be slightly on the high side.

2. As you have stated yourself, the key thing is your footwork. Your base is too narrow on some shots. Opt for a wider base with your feet and sink down a little more. Set up better, too, if you can. don_budge's "three lines" spring to mind here.

3. Trying to micro manage every aspect of a stroke is pretty near impossible and tends to lead to players becoming "hung up" about their strokes. There comes a point when players need to forget their strokes and do battle with what they have. If I were you I would concentrate on making the basic things better, then concern yourself more with the effectiveness of your strokes rather than imitating in micro detail some lofty role model. That would be Federer to date by the look of it.

Once again, thank you to Jason for such a wonderful effort in trying to help you.

NB. I never liked Mardy's racket tip pointing so far forward so late in the backswing. He gets away with it...most club players don't.

Jason has been very kind with what he has done, and I will look to repay him in the future in whatever way I can. He's been very helpful.

Yeah, I originally modeled it on Federer yeah.

I agree with your points as well. I am very conservative when it comes to my opinion on things. I don't like to express my opinion without the opinions of others on it sometimes. It's a confidence thing really. When it comes to being a coach, I'm quite experienced for a 20 year old but I'm not that experienced so I like to try to surround myself with more knowledgeable people and draw on their experiences and continue to learn as best I can about the game.


I did think the backswing as a little high, and the left arm but I didn't mention it before. Now that you have pointed it out I may try and lower it a bit. I did experiment a tiny bit with lowering it but it felt awkward, was only just a little experiment but I might try to, when I'm shifting the grip to the more modern "Eastern" I will try to lower my left arm stretch as well.

I like Don's posts on the forum. Will check out the 3 lines thing. The footwork is the big thing though.

And on the last point I completely agree. In the past I tried to copy the pros to every single aspect but my view has changed on this only recently. It's been a gradual change. John talking about pros finding their own most effective way of hitting the ball and that people are individuals has been slowly convincing to try and do what's best for me and not what another person does well. Sure you can take key checkpoints etc. for reference but it's better to develop your own style and game. What really convinced me on this was an article Federer did for the Wimbledon site called where he said "You don't want another me". Was a good read. So now I'm focused on developing what's best for me, buying clothes that suit me, using a racket that suits me, playing my game, making myself successful with my talents and not copy catting other players. It's a great point and thanks for making it.


Just to clarify as well, this thread is kind of just fun for me. I will take on board any opinions about what I'm doing but I didn't create this to actively seek them. I just thought it may be interesting for you guys to see how a fellow subscriber is using the resources of this brilliant site that got me into coaching to use. Thanks for all the kind words and help though, it is of course greatly appreciated and will be re-paid in whatever way possible

[jasonfrausto]

No repayment necessary! I do this stuff for my students all the time and enjoy doing it. Start with that grip change I do agree with multiple perspectives (John and others) that you don't need a carbon copy of a stroke, having your own unique elements is beneficial, as long as those unique elements aren't what is failing you within the stroke. Get that moving and hitting footage/pointplay stuff recorded and that will probably benefit you the most.

[bottle]

For jryle1

I like the "no nudge" part in # 15. If jryle1 wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, and bottle wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, then probably thousands of people ought to nudge who are not nudging right now.

That, therefore, should be useful information for anybody who fancies himself a tennis teacher.

You, jryle1, aren't just a pitcher waiting to be filled up but have a lot to teach the teachers, too, so congratulations on this wish by you (sadly, all too rare) to actually communicate.

[jryle1]

I like the "no nudge" part in # 15. If jryle1 wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, and bottle wasn't nudging before he started to nudge, then probably thousands of people ought to nudge who are not nudging right now.

That, therefore, should be useful information for anybody who fancies himself a tennis teacher.

You, jryle1, aren't just a pitcher waiting to be filled up but have a lot to teach the teachers, too, so congratulations on this wish by you (sadly, all too rare) to actually communicate.

I'm not too sure I quite fully understand this post but I'm going to say thank you anyway?

[bottle]

What's not to understand? Teachers in all fields learn from their students every day. As to the "nudge" part, you and I, separately, found that Macci's "nudge" advice was something we needed to take seriously and hadn't really been able to come up with on our own. That at least was my interpretation of that part of your post. Which is directly related to Brian Gordon's essays about development of The ATP Style Forehand with their emphasis on free motion from the shoulder-- back, down and forward in my view.

Well, we're lucky that we can get both technical and more sensory explanations of the same thing in this website. I would never blame anybody for tacking more toward one or the other although my personal method is to use both.

Well, thanks for the thanks. Maybe you were worried by the "pitcher" part of my post where I voiced my fear for every student in every field-- that he or she will be overly passive and drawn to command style rather than Socratic interaction.

Actually, command can work very well in tennis. Just ask Robert Lansdorp. I'll bet, however, that even he has been known to reason with some of his students. And I love the tennischiro-Stotty-donbudge-bottle theme in these pages that the best learning of all occurs when you figure out something difficult all by yourself, with, of course, a little help from your friends.

[jryle1]

What's not to understand? Teachers in all fields learn from their students every day. As to the "nudge" part, you and I, separately, found that Macci's "nudge" advice was something we needed to take seriously and hadn't really been able to come up with on our own. That at least was my interpretation of that part of your post. Which is directly related to Brian Gordon's essays about development of The ATP Style Forehand with their emphasis on free motion from the shoulder-- back, down and forward in my view.

Well, we're lucky that we can get both technical and more sensory explanations of the same thing in this website. I would never blame anybody for tacking more toward one or the other although my personal method is to use both.

Well, thanks for the thanks. Maybe you were worried by the "pitcher" part of my post where I voiced my fear for every student in every field-- that he or she will be overly passive and drawn to command style rather than Socratic interaction.

Actually, command can work very well in tennis. Just ask Robert Lansdorp. I'll bet, however, that even he has been known to reason with some of his students. And I love the tennischiro-Stotty-donbudge-bottle theme in these pages that the best learning of all occurs when you figure out something difficult all by yourself, with, of course, a little help from your friends.

Ah I understand everything now. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, at my age, I can't of find myself in both fields still. At 20 years of age I'm a qualified tennis coach, coaching about 10-12 hours a week in my club, it's my part-time job outside of university yet I'm still determined to try to play to the highest level possible and want to continue improving my game. I'm kind of stuck in the Teacher-Student gap, I want to be both but they really conflict a lot and generally being the teacher allows me to eat, while being the student doesn't so the teacher generally wins out!

[bottle]

Cool.

[jryle1]

Update!

Hey guys,

It's been a while since my last update. A few months and one of the reasons being I haven't had much court time.

Anyway, to fill you in, I filmed all of these 12 clips of my Forehand, Backhand and Serve about 1-2 weeks ago. I'm also beginning work with a coach next week to try and get my game back because I've been in a massive slump the last 2 months (more information on this in a bit).

For now, I'll post the videos, then I'll post my analysis of the technical elements. Then I'll post the plan of action as well as a description of how my game is going.

First the videos:


Serve:

https://vimeo.com/77235024

https://vimeo.com/77235023

https://vimeo.com/77235022

https://vimeo.com/77235021

Backhand:

https://vimeo.com/77231048

https://vimeo.com/77231045

https://vimeo.com/77231044

https://vimeo.com/77231043

Forehand:

https://vimeo.com/77231049

https://vimeo.com/77234309

https://vimeo.com/77234310

https://vimeo.com/77252295

Will have some accompanying posts tomorrow with my opinions etc. and what the plan of action with my coach will be to help improve my game in all aspects.

[GeoffWilliams]

Got to lose belly spare tire to have a chance.

[jryle1]

Got to lose belly spare tire to have a chance.

Oh I know! It's always been my Achilles heel!

I am working on it. At the beginning of 2013 in January I was weighing in at 291 pounds!! For others, that's 20 Stone 11 Pounds or 132.2kg.

Since the middle of January however I've lost 63 pounds, or 4 stone 7 pounds, or 28.6kg. I'm now weighing in at 228 pounds. My goal is to hit 182 pounds so 46 pounds to go and I'm hoping that I'll hit this by the time 2013 is out!

But you're right, it's the most important thing I have to improve over anything else.

[klacr]

Oh I know! It's always been my Achilles heel!

I am working on it. At the beginning of 2013 in January I was weighing in at 291 pounds!! For others, that's 20 Stone 11 Pounds or 132.2kg.

Since the middle of January however I've lost 63 pounds, or 4 stone 7 pounds, or 28.6kg. I'm now weighing in at 228 pounds. My goal is to hit 182 pounds so 46 pounds to go and I'm hoping that I'll hit this by the time 2013 is out!

But you're right, it's the most important thing I have to improve over anything else.

Congrats on the weight loss. It will change your life and especially your tennis game. Keep it up.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

To eat...and what to eat. That is the question.

Oh I know! It's always been my Achilles heel!

I am working on it. At the beginning of 2013 in January I was weighing in at 291 pounds!! For others, that's 20 Stone 11 Pounds or 132.2kg.

Since the middle of January however I've lost 63 pounds, or 4 stone 7 pounds, or 28.6kg. I'm now weighing in at 228 pounds. My goal is to hit 182 pounds so 46 pounds to go and I'm hoping that I'll hit this by the time 2013 is out!

But you're right, it's the most important thing I have to improve over anything else.

Congrats on the weight loss. It will change your life and especially your tennis game. Keep it up.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

I'll second that congratulations jryle1. Disciplining what goes in the mouth is often one of the most difficult things to accomplish in life...the most difficult is disciplining what comes out. By the way...I have my Achilles heel too. Mine just happens to be women...always has been. Perhaps it is every man's in the end. Unless they're gay. Everyone has their Achilles heel. Just managing it is the key it seems. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...work on the weakest link to strengthen the chain.

You must have a complimentary exercise program as well. I recommend some yoga and weight resistance training to build up those joints, ligaments and tendons. Plenty of core work, planks and stretches. The tennis is going to break down your body in a sense, especially since you are still somewhat overweight...doing some "prehab" is a good way to build yourself up to prevent a breakdown of some sort. The pounding on your joints and the stress the game puts on your tendons and ligaments often takes them to the breaking point. If I were you I would really concentrate on this aspect of your training as much as your tennis. Coming out of your "supersized" state you are going to have to do some work on the structure to accommodate your new energized lifestyle.

Take a load of Esther in this shoulder stretch...she is really easy on the eyes and Irish too. Or rather Danish with some Irish background. Or whatever. At any rate take a look at some of her other videos. Work on that core. The core is your source of discipline and strength. This is where you can fortify yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppToA1N0CgE

Try this bad girl on for size...this will work for you. Take it easy and don't hurt yourself at first. Build up to it. There is no rush to get there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tufb3aLdt8M

I noticed your weight loss immediately in your videos and I can only say that I admire your effort to change your way of life. I think that it was Dostoyevsky that said that the second half of one's life is only repeating the same mistakes that we made in the first half. Serious and sustainable change is the most difficult thing to succeed at in life and you will be an inspiration to all those around you if you should succeed in your sojourn.

The key is to follow through...just as in any successful tennis shot. Take a shot at life! You have embarked on this journey to get yourself in good physical condition. You are using tennis as your motivating tool which is great. Savor the effort that you are putting into both aspects of your metamorphous and remember in the future the tough grind and the sacrifices that you are making. You will learn that anything is possible if you set your mind to something and pursue it with all of your strength and all of your will. Discover passion for life!

You won't always succeed but you can always do your best. This is the real meaning of life...to do your best. Right now your attitude is in lock step with your goals. There will be times when the wind might just stop blowing into your sails just a bit. What are you going to do then? Persevere...just keep grinding. Think David Ferrer.

Diet is a fascinating part of the equation. In today's world it is very easy to slip into poor dietary habits. Look into the woods...you don't see many obese animals. No...they are fighting too hard to stay alive as you are using your tennis to symbolize that struggle for existence. Plus they religiously watch what they eat...plus they exercise. Staying alive. For the past couple of years I have slipped into the habit of eating the exact same thing every day at pretty much the same time. I guess that the animals in the forest don't need that much variety in their diets either. They eat what they need.

With regard to your tennis strokes they look vaguely familiar. Are you modeling yourself off of Roger Federer? If so...you and Grigor Dimitrov and thousands of others. But beware the danger and the trap that lies therein...you are not Roger Federer. So everything actually looks pretty cool but take this into consideration. One big difference between you and Roger Federer is the ability to get in position...so Roger has lots of time to prepare himself compared to you or me for that matter. If I were your coach I would try to get you to minimize everything a bit. Lower backswing on both sides to begin with. Once you are moving and on the run those big groundies are going to sort of break down when you find yourself out of position or off balance.

I like what those fellows are doing fooling around behind you in your forehand videos. They are working with their feet. You are going to need "happy feet" to play this game. Your feet are probably getting happy already since they don't have to lug so much weight around as before. This is something that will pay huge dividends for you. In your "supersized" state your footwork has been neglected because of physical limitations...so now that you are reducing yourself you are going to have to learn all over or for once and for all on how to move your feet. As you get into better physical condition this is where you can really find windfall profits on your investment of time and effort. Work on your movement. At the upper echelons of tennis it isn't the pretty groundstrokes and technique that are separating the men from the boys....it is their ability to get their butts into position.

All that being said...I will say this. Number one...your attitude is just great and that is the most important thing of all. You have convinced yourself that you can do this and your premise that by using the resources of this website to accomplish your goal is a worthy one and one that should be of great interest to John Yandell. It is the ultimate compliment to his product.

Keep up the good work and full speed ahead. Take some time to rest periodically too...you don't want to burn yourself out. Remember that Rome wasn't built in a day. Let's think 365 days at this point. If you take 365 baby steps that is going to be one giant leap. Measure your improvement in a one year cycle. One trip around the sun. Keep your goals in sight. One year at a time. Best of luck to you and looking forwards to reading more of your journey!

Get plenty of rest and absolutely no alcohol!

[don_budge]

jryle1 original vs. Federer copy...Service Motion Backswing

http://vimeo.com/77235024

What a nice backswing jryle1! Nice rotation into the ball. All in all...a nice silky rhythm. I can't wait to see you in your final version...a svelte 185 lbs. I would like to see it in real time as slow motion sometimes masks the rhythm which is so important in serving.

The one thing that I would "criticize" is the momentary lull at the point in the "Federer" imitation where he actually starts his backswing. This is the one idiosyncrasy that I don't care for in the Federer motion. I would recommend that you begin your backswing with your racquet level and pointing at your target. From here a nice down together and up together will serve you nicely. Your hands and arms are moving beautifully and in synch together in the pre-shot routine and I would like to see you maintain that synchronistic motion and rhythm throughout the swing from stop to finish. Can you see how you are interrupting the flow with that hesitation? Believe or not...it seems to encourage you to throw the ball just a bit too far behind you...or should I say it prevents you from throwing the ball far enough into the court. Why? Because it delays the transition from front to back and from back to front again with the little pause. Federer of course has it all worked out in his magic formula's...but I think you can do a little better in your rendition.

That little deviation ala Roger Federer is going to sort of impede on a fluid and silky motion in the end. It already does to my eye. There is just a bit of hitch between your backswing and forward swing. Not much...but a little funny business just the same. Much the same as Grigor "Baby Fed" Dimitrov has in his motion...in his Federer imitation.

This is the trap of imitation...the little idiosyncrasies of the original morph into little hitches in the copies. The hitch may just become a flaw which is counterproductive to the individual. If it creates friction in the machine it is a flaw.

Keep in mind that tennis is an art...a means of self expression and not merely copying somebody else's interpretation. Dare to go it alone...which of course you already have. God Speed Man!!!

I like Don's posts on the forum. Will check out the 3 lines thing. The footwork is the big thing though.

lisencedcoach is reading my mind with regard to footwork and setup on the forehand. In your case I have some rather personalized thoughts which I would like to write about after you have read my thoughts about the footwork as it relates to the forehand. licensedcoach started a thread called "Shaping Forehands" back in August or so in 2012. I was referring to the "Forehand Not Gone" music video illustrating the footwork of your model...Roger Federer. For some reason I have not been able to engage the video.