A New Teaching System: The Serve: The Trophy Position

[10splayer]

Check Andy's motion at 0:27 seconds and 1minute:11seconds of this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w

He may have an unusual way of getting there and I wouldn't recommend imitating it, but Andy actually comes pretty close to a classic "trophy" position in his windup. Furthermore, while his preparation and backswing are unusual or even idiosyncratic, the rhythm of his motion and toss are absolutely repeated every time he serves.

don

Well sure, there is always some form of a trophy position. (as defined by the position of the racquet and arm and the beginning of the leg drive) The question is, in what position is easier to cordinate these two movements. (leg drive and arm progressions down the back) I would submit that Andy's TP is more difficult to time (because the arm is low and out to the right) than someone like Fed who's arm is in a more traditional position at the onset of the upward leg drive.

[tennis_chiro]

Agreed

Well sure, there is always some form of a trophy position. (as defined by the position of the racquet and arm and the beginning of the leg drive) The question is, in what position is easier to cordinate these two movements. (leg drive and arm progressions down the back) I would submit that Andy's TP is more difficult to time (because the arm is low and out to the right) than someone like Fed who's arm is in a more traditional position at the onset of the upward leg drive.

I would absolutely agree with you. But some people get confused by the double clutch and fail to recognize that he does come pretty close to the classic position. I think it is much tougher to make it work the way he gets that elbow tucked, but it did work for him

don

[don_budge]

The case of Andy Roddick with respect to "A New Teaching System: The Serve"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlcVqEn3v2s

From Bill Tilden:

Power and control in service come from the free use of the racquet head and never can be gained by the wild gyrations and acrobatic writhings in which you see so many players indulge.

The above comment seems to suggest that there should be a smooth and rhythmic transition between the backswing and the forward swing. I would suggest that this is possible if and only if the server is in position to do exactly that. Andy Roddick is a perfect example. His motion was pretty limited in the sense of classic serving. He didn't have a great variety of spins and speeds. He had a big bomb. A very big bomb. So it is possible to serve at incredible speeds without attaining the "trophy position"...this is true. But how many more of those trophies would Andy Roddick had if he had served with classic service motion. A little more disguise...a little more variety of spin and speed. A lot more deception. If the classic motion also would have encouraged him to go the the net a bit more to take advantage of his size and his athleticism. It just may have been Andy with seventeen Slams...another slight exaggeration.

I believe that it is imperative to teach the classic motion and Roger's position at the top is where every classic server has started their serve forward swing from. But the fact is...tennis has changed so John is right in the respect that many of the top players do not get to the classic trophy position. But the question is...would their motions be better if they did? Why were they not taught to get there in the first place?

The Andy Roddick serve:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w

Uhh, Andy's serve is as good as anyone to ever play the game. In terms of pure numbers, Andy's combination of speed and spin were off the charts, in fact, greater than even Sampras's. No, the serve was in fact what kept Andy in the game. His basic problem was an average backhand, and a linebackers body and movement skills. And, oh yes, guys named Fed and Nadal.

I wrote post #11 in this thread which is entitled "A New Teaching System: The Serve: The Trophy Position" and I offered up some comments and suggestions regarding my thoughts on the transcript...which I thoughtfully wrote down from the video lesson that John Yandell prepared for the site. If you think about it...and have any kind of questioning mind you might have asked yourself..."why don_budge, why did you do that?" And if your brain is not too taxed from that mental inquiry you might make a note to yourself and come to the conclusion that since don_budge went to the trouble of writing the transcript out...he just may have listened to the video more times than anybody else and if he is not mentally retarded he just may have gotten a better understanding out of the lesson by the sheer effort of listening and writing down what he heard. But you some one of you...this is too much to hope for.

The post that I wrote was not that long comparatively speaking but it did involve some thought. The theme of my post was why it is better to arrive at the trophy position via the traditional backswing that John Yandell is advocating as well. He uses Roger Federer as the model...and what better example is there among the current players today? Andy Roddick?

I wrote a bit about Andy Roddick...just a little bit about his serve. I was writing from the context of the lesson...and that was whether it was important to arrive at the trophy position at all...as John was discussing in his lesson. You see...that is why I wrote out the transcript. I wanted to make certain that I understood just exactly what it was he was trying to communicate. I used to tell my employees that if they had anything useful to contribute it was best to write it down in the form of a proposal...because if all that they did was verbally transmit it the words are often forgotten as soon as they are spoken. This is the advantage of the written document. Once the air stops moving that the lips created by flapping often times the words are forgotten by the one who was targeted in the first place. Make any sense to you? I didn't think so. Even when you spell things out it's not guaranteed that there is going to be understanding.

But back to 10splayer and his comment. You know...10s...if you had put a "d" in front of your opening salvo "Uhh" you would have had "dUhh" which would probably implied that I am some kind of stupido or mental midget or something to that effect. Just because you "disagree" with what I wrote that makes me wrong in your eyes...to which I must tell you...who cares? But your taking exception to my comments about the Andy Roddick service motion were a bit short sighted so I would like to clarify a bit...not for your sake. But for my own...being so full of myself as you once suggested to me. Being so stupid that a certain forum contributor had forgotten more than I ever knew. You remind me of someone...a former supervisor. He was Italian too. A big pot bellied bag of hot air. Talk about being full of ones self.

My comments were based solely on the view point as that of a teacher. I acknowledged that Andy had a big booming serve but my question as a teacher is...could it have been better? Another question that I have as a teacher is...who taught him that serve? I assume that it is pretty much homemade or something to that effect. It is a unique motion to say the least and the motion is not what I would call aesthetically pleasing to the tennis connoisseur's eye...which I consider myself. So the next question that I asked myself what are the merits of possibly teaching this motion to a tennis player and the answer that I come up with is...none. I couldn't teach it...maybe you can. But I doubt that even you could. It is a completely idiosyncratic motion that relates only to Andy Roddick...as it is.

Another question that I ask myself about Andy Roddick and the Andy Roddick tennis game as he played it, is if his service motion is self taught what about the rest of it. So then I begin the fantasy about what I would have done if I would have been so lucky as to have such a talented pupil...how would I tried to have molded him. The first thing that I would have done is to emphasis fundamentals like I do with every single one of my tennis students...and the first stroke that I would have tried to iron out before it was set in stone would have been his serve. As I speculate in my comments I wonder if he might not have been a much better server if he has a classic backswing and serve with classic tactics. Mere speculation as a teacher...not an evaluation of his actual merits or level of success during his career. That sort of stuff is not really relevant to this article.

But once I had his serve looking very classic and classy as it is...I would have gone to work on the rest of his tennis game for a finished look that probably would not have looked anything like the Andy Roddick we know. I would have Andy doing a lot of movement forwards and backwards...but most forwards with the idea being that the end result would be a player that was attacking the net. During his career he was a little before the current engineering so it would have been even more appropriate to train him with a classic serve motion...with classic "trophy position". Then it would have been a lot of work in the middle of the court and how to approach and volley. I feel with his physique he would have been ideal moving more forwards as opposed to going side to side as a baseliner...it would have more appropriate for his body type. Maybe saved some wear and tear on that "linebacker" physique.

As a teacher of tennis when I look at a player of Andy Roddick's physique and talent...when I see the capability to hit the ball as hard as he could on his serve with that motion...I see even more room for improvement. I see a player that could have been quite a bit more thoughtful in the end product if the time would have been taken in the beginning to take into consideration what the architect was working with. As it was...I feel that there was a lot of undeveloped potential in the Andy Roddick game...not that he didn't have a very successful career or could really deliver the "Big Boomer" of a serve. He just never gave me the impression of being overly thoughtful about his tennis.

But all that being said...and most of it may be irrelevant with regards to the thread so I will try to tie it up here. I feel that the John Newcombe method and motion is a much better model for teaching a tennis player how to get into position to go to the ball with their racquet than the Andy Roddick method. Roger Federer is certainly a viable model as well...except for the way that he initiates the swing...because that is his own idiosyncratic move that is personal to him. I would have no idea or inclination either...to teach Roddick's method to a fledgling tennis player or an advance tennis player. His method is what I would term...unorthodox. bottle might say "quirky".

It is probably best to teach 99.99999% of students something that is fundamentally sound than to steer them into something that is so...quirky. To come out of the backswing into the forward swing it is best to come out with something that resembles the classic trophy position as opposed to not. Is that clear...or did I just muck it up so more. Duhhh.

[DougEng]

Check Andy's motion at 0:27 seconds and 1minute:11seconds of this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w

He may have an unusual way of getting there and I wouldn't recommend imitating it, but Andy actually comes pretty close to a classic "trophy" position in his windup. Furthermore, while his preparation and backswing are unusual or even idiosyncratic, the rhythm of his motion and toss are absolutely repeated every time he serves.

don

Yes, Roddick was actually classic trophy or loading position, maybe with Sampras and Ivanisevic the best in recent memory.

[DougEng]

Here's a classic tennis service motion courtesy of tennis_chiro in bottle's "A New Year's Serve":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlcVqEn3v2s

Traditionally all great servers came to what is being referred to as the "trophy position". I never did like that term. Like every other stroke in the game the basic sequence is...starting position or ready position, backswing, get in position and forward swing. So from that context the "trophy position" it is the point in the swing where the player is in position to transition from the backswing to the forward swing. In the game that I refer to as classic tennis every single server practically without exception came to some kind of similar position where there could be a nice rhythmic, smooth transition between the two swings.

The trophy's that have been awarded to the winner of tennis tournaments from the beginning of time have the player in this position for a reason. Most likely, too, the winner of that tournament has a very adequate serve comparatively speaking to the rest of the field and you can bet your bottom dollar that player probably came to a position very similar to the one that is represented on the trophy...a position where he is in position to go forward with ease and simplicity to hit his service.

One of the major fundamental differences in the modern game of tennis and the classic game is the absence of net play. In the classic game, often one of the primary tactical objectives of the player was to get to the net behind their serve. In today's game this is a rarely used tactic and the necessity of having a service motion that is conducive to this forward movement is no longer a prerequisite so we have seen a rather large range of "acceptable" service motions. Motions that are designed for great speed and not necessarily for spin, placement and controlled speed. So if you just use your imagination you might picture many of the convoluted windups and wild gyrations that players use nowadays to put the ball in play. Slight exaggeration...what's new?

In the past tennis players that were great champions to run of the mill journeymen were intent on using slice spin, over spin, kick spin and the flat or cannonball serve. The only position that it makes any kind of logistical sense to deliver such variety of delivery with the same motion is from the position that is referred to here as the trophy position or something very close to it. Of course you might see individual nuances in service delivery to service delivery but for the most part the forward swing started from a position that was very similar to each others. The John Newcombe clip above is a perfect example.

The key to the ability to deliver a number of variations with the same delivery is the wrist. Only from an approximation of the classic trophy position can the wrist be slung at different angles on the ball to produce the different spins. I should say the most effective way...perhaps it can be done from a variety of positions. Just that I am not aware that it can be.

From Bill Tilden:

Power and control in service come from the free use of the racquet head and never can be gained by the wild gyrations and acrobatic writhings in which you see so many players indulge.

The above comment seems to suggest that there should be a smooth and rhythmic transition between the backswing and the forward swing. I would suggest that this is possible if and only if the server is in position to do exactly that. Andy Roddick is a perfect example. His motion was pretty limited in the sense of classic serving. He didn't have a great variety of spins and speeds. He had a big bomb. A very big bomb. So it is possible to serve at incredible speeds without attaining the "trophy position"...this is true. But how many more of those trophies would Andy Roddick had if he had served with classic service motion. A little more disguise...a little more variety of spin and speed. A lot more deception. If the classic motion also would have encouraged him to go the the net a bit more to take advantage of his size and his athleticism. It just may have been Andy with seventeen Slams...another slight exaggeration.

I believe that it is imperative to teach the classic motion and Roger's position at the top is where every classic server has started their serve forward swing from. But the fact is...tennis has changed so John is right in the respect that many of the top players do not get to the classic trophy position. But the question is...would their motions be better if they did? Why were they not taught to get there in the first place?

Take Andy Murray for instance. He has been teetering on the brink of being a legitimate contender for Grand Slam winner status and one of the things that has helped to put him over the edge is an improved service motion. Look at Grigor Dimtriov...he has a rather individualistic interpretation of the "get in position" position and he looks to me as if he is not nearly getting the potential out of his motion that he has. The "Baby Fed" could try to imitate this nuance from "The Swiss Maestro's" form here to his benefit...I think.

Roddick had one of the finest trophy or loading positions. Loading is actually the more commonly used term. We are in a bit archaic time using "trophy position". Funny is Vic Braden used to criticize the trophies. The older trophies had an elbow close to the body like Djokovic. More recent trophies have the elbow higher in a more optimal position.

[stotty]

Lets talk trophy

Let's talk trophy...loading...racket throwing...whatever.

Here is a 19 year-old boy who plays at my club. He is 6 foot 2 inches tall and well built.

Rather than me throw his playing history on the line and give you clues, instead you tell me. Is his serve good, bad, average....unusual...and what about his trophy, the timing of it?....your call.

It's tough what he is trying to pull off...does he make it or not?

Does his serve remind you of anyone? A player from the past perhaps...it does me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCTOGPeei4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsDkllR2Hu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Z80walazA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aDVl_T9bAE

[charlieinneedham]

Thanks John

“Isn’t it astonishing that all these secrets have been preserved for so many years just so we could discover them!” - Orville Wright


Thank you for bringing to tennis players all over the world the "how to do it" aspect of the scientific method of careful observation.

You have empowered us to implement "continuous quality improvement" that has revolutionized every workplace.

And you have done it simply and elegantly.

I would go so far as to say your method is "The Model" for tennis learning - just like you used Fed as "The Model" for the serve.

Well done!

Thank you!

[gsheiner]

Just to get things started --doesn't he jackknife?

[seano10s]

Serves

I'd love to be 6'2" and 19 again. Things I would focus on:
1) His toss seems to far to the left, as a result has too much of a bend in that direction at Trophy position and contact and drifts that way at the end.
2) Starts cartwheel motion of left shoulder too early, racquet (right side) hasn't gotten into position yet (trophy position).
3) He does jack knife with hips moving backwards as his upper body moves to contact.
4) Right hip rotates too early (toss to the left). Needs to stay sideways more at contact.
5) Lands on left foot around the spot where his started, needs to land inside court more. Not enough energy going up and in to the court.

More thoughts?

[tennis_chiro]

Stotty's server

Seems like Seano10s is bringing up an awful lot of good points. I was just struck by how bent over he is at contact. For comparison, you can take the side view of Lendl's serve in the archive:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/ivanlendl/lendl_serve/lendl_serve.html?LendlServeAdBodyRotationSide.mov

I think if he just got up a little higher and to the right it would be a simple way for him to address a lot of the points in Seano10s's post. Obviously, there are some idiosyncrasies I would discourage if I caught them early on, but they are pretty hard to change at this stage.

don

[stotty]

Late with the trophy..

Great comments. Seano10s hits it on the button, as does tennis_chiro and gsheiner.

The boy in the clip is Miles. I have never coached Miles individually. He started coming to a squad of mine for a couple of years when he was fifteen. I found his serve interesting. I didn’t take his serve to task because squads aren’t the ideal place to start tucking into technique, and his previous coach had embedded the idea that his serve is good one, which it is, actually. Miles can clock up 100mph and serve reasonably consistently. His misses, however, tend to be wild when they happen...hitting the baseline sometimes.

I thought it would be interesting to upload Miles’ serve to this particular thread because of the timing of his trophy position. He arrives at the trophy position a fraction late. The tossing arm is starting to come down quite a bit as the trophy position is arrived at. This is what causes him to fold over so much, so early. At least that’s my theory.

If we are to break the serve down Brian Gordon style: wind up, backswing, upward swing and follow through...then the wind up would seem the problem. I feel a wind up like this is tough to pull off. Lew Hoad’s wind up wasn’t too dissimilar in the way the elbow juts out beyond the plain of the body. But Hoad’s motion was simpler and he gets the tip of the racket up earlier so there is no risk being late for the trophy position in relation to the extended tossing arm.

These are my thoughts. I actually don’t think Miles is too far away from a better serve. It’s pretty effective already!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCTOGPeei4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsDkllR2Hu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Z80walazA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aDVl_T9bAE

[seano10s]

serve con't

Pat Dougherty talks about keeping your body in a cylinder in the "wind up" and beyond. Tossing to the right alittle more and staying "in the cylinder" would serve him well. It never ceases to amaze me how little the human eye actually sees. Watching the slow motion serves were so much more helpful than normal speed. Even at the "slower motion", I was constantly stopping and starting the video to get a true idea.

[johnyandell]

Charlie,

Thank you so much for the comment. It means a lot because what you describe is in large part what I am going for...

John

[EdWeiss]

Stotty: the jack knife is the most obvious issue I can see. In my teaching experience it is a common problem. i have found a couple of things helpful to correct that problem. First, have the student serve without moving his feet - just pivot the back foot but that is all that is allowed. By taking the jump out of the serve, the student can focus on better body posture. Second, hang a string from a tree limb and have the student stretch up to hit the string at contact. On the positive side, in the trophy position looks somewhat like Tony Trabert. Thanks

[EdWeiss]

It also looks to me that he has good explosion in his body and with some changes could have a big serve