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Would love to get your thoughts on my latest article, "A New Teaching System: The Serve: The Trophy Position"
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Trophy position and timing problem , injury prevention.
1. I want to point the timing problem. As far as i now its almost impossible to time a stroke from the starting position. So i was told that when i am going through service motion and through trophy position a can speed up up or slow down that through - trophy - position path to match the specific position of the ball and to meet the ball on the proper position. It cannnot be done later because of starting the acceleration through the wind up. I cannnot be done earlier because youd now how exactly high ( its about inches) have you thrown the ball. So i think it would be worth to mention that specific problem.
2. Secondly in the description lacks short information which changes or deviation from the proper technique could lead to injury - for example how extreme you can be turned on trophy position to avoid back injury.
Konrad -
Language Does Matter
You need to have someone help you with your English, Konrad. As it is, this post is incomprehensible. But I, too, listened to the lesson-- and carefully-- why wouldn't I when it relates so immediately to whether I, John Escher, am going to find some added power?
You may, Konrad, be wondering whether a person can serve without a trophy position at all. Or whether the trophy position should be here, or here, or there. Or whether "trophy position" is merely an arbitrary term for our convenience. Or whether those with a fast action should start their significant arm work from lower and a bit later. The lesson addresses these topics and others very well, it seems to me.
Me, I wonder if certain servers like myself should have a kind of trophy position for easy reference or as a gathering place to accelerate the rest of the serve, but not the conventional trophy position with elbow bent at a perfect right angle and the racket perfectly skunk-tailed at the sky.
No, one can't accelerate from the beginning of any swing or throw in sport, but one can establish a reliable and repeatable rhythm.
If this video lesson has a moral, it's this: Fool around more.Comment
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konrad,
It's a mistake to think that there is critical acceleration in the windup. Two thirds of the acceleration occurs in about a tenth of a second from the racket drop to the contact. The speed stays pretty constant over most of the windup.
There is no problem using the trophy position as a timing point, as I pointed out using Federer as the example! It's just a mistake to think this is the critical position. What I do when I work with players is film them and look at the racket drop first. If that is good and the rhythm is smooth and relaxed it doesn't matter if they don't mkae the classic trophy position.
As for the body turn and injury. I am going to do a future article as mentioned on the turn. But really there is no way to make cause and effect statements about positions in the serve and injury. Is it unlikely most players can turn as much as Pete? Yes. Do most players give away natural and effortless power with their starting stances and lack of turn? Yes. Stay tuned for that.Comment
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replay
Please excuse my lack of proper english.
1. I was talking about the part of the motion being described as "Phase 2 " My point was that this is the moment - with 3,5 mph speed ( as mentioned in the article - Phase 2 - Arm Drop to Power Position) when you can adjust (time) your motion with the position of the ball. You cannot make any adjustment in the acceleration phases (3,4) because that would impede the the development of the racket speed.
2. You may correct me if I am wrong - but I understood from Your video that there is now stop on the trophy position but rather a fluid motion of the arm which goes through the trophy position with no freezing at the point described as trophy position.
3. I was told by trainer - this time is the proper time to make adjustment of the speed of the arm (speed up or slow down) to see the ball in proper place for starting the acceleration - Phase 3 and 4. So my question would be when in the serve motion is time to make that adjustment?
4. My injury question was connected with the leaning back in trophy position - how much of this is needed and how much is actually unhealthy.Comment
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There are better descriptive terms out there...
Great article, John. I just love these video articles. I love the text articles, too, but the video articles have definitely added another dimension.
In the UK we tend to use the term “throwing action” over the term trophy position. I think it covers what goes on in a serve better...in a critical sense, at least. I have never read much in to the term “trophy position” and have always found it rather meaningless.
Here’s a clip of a French kid I took at junior Wimbledon this year. I cannot remember his name but will dig it out if anyone is interested. He had the biggest serve of all the juniors I saw that day. I reckon it was going at 120mph. There was no radar on his court so I am guessing. I am posting both a real time and slomo clips.
It’s an ugly serve, sheer brute force. He doesn't have much rotation...no rotary toss. Look at the high elbow and that odd shoulder lift. What about the timing of his trophy position? His serve worked, though. I watched him play a set, and his first serve percentage was quite high. He’s a strong boy, too...a real specimen, which helps. And like I said, that ball was really travelling...quickest I saw at junior Wimbledon this year.
__________________StottyComment
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No video is coming up Stotty. I'd love to see it.Originally posted by licensedcoach View PostGreat article, John. I just love these video articles. I love the text articles, too, but the video articles have definitely added another dimension.
In the UK we tend to use the term “throwing action” over the term trophy position. I think it covers what goes on in a serve better...in a critical sense, at least. I have never read much in to the term “trophy position” and have always found it rather meaningless.
Here’s a clip of a French kid I took at junior Wimbledon this year. I cannot remember his name but will dig it out if anyone is interested. He had the biggest serve of all the juniors I saw that day. I reckon it was going at 120mph. There was no radar on his court so I am guessing. I am posting both a real time and slomo clips.
It’s an ugly serve, sheer brute force. He doesn't have much rotation...no rotary toss. Look at the high elbow and that odd shoulder lift. What about the timing of his trophy position? His serve worked, though. I watched him play a set, and his first serve percentage was quite high. He’s a strong boy, too...a real specimen, which helps. And like I said, that ball was really travelling...quickest I saw at junior Wimbledon this year.
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Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca RatonComment
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Klacr, I have reposted...try this time.Originally posted by klacr View Post
Great article, John. I just love these video articles. I love the text articles, too, but the video articles have definitely added another dimension.
In the UK we tend to use the term “throwing action” over the term trophy position. I think it covers what goes on in a serve better...in a critical sense, at least. I have never read much in to the term “trophy position” and have always found it rather meaningless.
Here’s a clip of a French kid I took at junior Wimbledon this year. I cannot remember his name but will dig it out if anyone is interested. He had the biggest serve of all the juniors I saw that day. I reckon it was going at 120mph. There was no radar on his court so I am guessing. I am posting both a real time and slomo clips.
It’s an ugly serve, sheer brute force. He doesn't have much rotation...no rotary toss. Look at the high elbow and that odd shoulder lift. What about the timing of his trophy position? His serve worked, though. I watched him play a set, and his first serve percentage was quite high. He’s a strong boy, too...a real specimen, which helps. And like I said, that ball was really travelling...quickest I saw at junior Wimbledon this year.
StottyComment
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The Transcript...
Originally posted by johnyandell View Postthe transcript of the video: the trophy positionOriginally posted by licensedcoach View Post
the trophy position...now there’s a familiar term to most players and students of the game. refers to a pose on top of all those tennis trophies but also, allegedly to a critical position in the service motion. so let’s investigate true significance of the trophy position in this article. you see many players reach the classic trophy position with the racquet tip up, the tossing arm extended and the weight fully coiled. that includes the great roger federer, the player who best represents the pro model of the serve in so many respects.
but is reaching the trophy position at the exact same moment as federer critical to your serve? the answer is possibly or possibly not. the key is not teaching the trophy position as some arbitrary point in the swing. the key is making sure that the windup delivers the racquet to the right position for the upward swing and does this at the right time. so let’s look at the range of options and see the variations in how the arms move in the service motion.
the conventional idea of the trophy position is that the arms go down together and then up together in a smooth synchronized movement. according to this theory the tossing arm reaches full extension just as the racquet arm reaches the classic “L” position. federer makes this position and andy murray is another elite player with similar timing, watch how the racquet arm and the tossing arm move together. with the extension of the tossing arm coinciding with the position of the racquet.
but other players time the motion very differently. watch how pete sampras delays his backswing but then keeps his tossing arm extended until the racquet arm catches up to the “L” position with a right angle bend between his upper and lower arms. federer’s motion has been the technical model for this series and the trophy position is a classic, viable option for many players. but is the trophy position fundamental for developing a high level serve. the fact is this...there is at least as many top players that don’t reach the trophy position as players that do.
players like andy roddick and fernando verdasco never reach the trophy position at all. instead the racquet arm remains at the side of the body as the tossing arm reaches full extension. still other players make the relative trophy positions with both arms but not at the same time. the tossing arm can reach the extension while the racquet arm is still quite low. the hitting arm eventually reaches the classic position but by this time the tossing arm has already started to drop sometimes substantially.
but that’s not all...great servers reach significantly different levels of extension with the tossing arm, at the most extended point the arm can actually still be angled forward or it can be bowed slightly back like roger. it can also be back more extremely like nadal. the fact is there is no standard shape or timing of the arm movements in high level serving. the timing of the arms is a function of other factors. these include personal rhythm, backswing shape and tossing height.
it’s fine to use the trophy position as a starting point if you are just learning the motion, but many established players will find that their tossing arm extension and the corresponding position of the racquet arm will vary substantially from the classic checkpoints and there is no reason to think that this is a problem. making the trophy position has no real value in and of it’s self. it represents on possible option in creating a motion with the true critical elements. these are the pro racquet drop along the side of the body, the rotation of the hand and arm in the upward swing and the positioning of the ball contact.
so the trophy position may or may not be right for you. the only way to accurately evaluate your arm positions in relationship to the racquet drop and the arm rotation is through the use of video. still if video shows there are problems in the timing of your windup the trophy position can actually serve as a valuable reference point. if you have trouble reaching the drop and have a delayed racquet arm motion you can adjust your motion using the image of the trophy position and even end up incorporating it directly into your motion. if you have a fast windup with a pause or a hitch you can try delaying the racquet arm and focus focus on the tossing arm extending before the hitting arm reaches the trophy position checkpoint.
you may very well end up with arm positions that look exactly like roger federer and that’s great so long as you are making the more fundamental positions that make his serve an all good serve so effective.
so that’s it on the trophy position and how it relates to a fundamentally sound technical motion. in upcoming articles we will look at additional important components in the serve including the starting stance, the use of the legs and the amount of body rotation. stay tuned for that.
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A couple of thoughts in regards to the trophy position.
One of the most important relationships in the serve (and it is obvious with all good servers) is the positions of the racquet as the leg drive progresses. In a nutshell, the racquet needs to be moving on it's downward path as the leg begin to extend. At maximum knee extension, the racquet should be (more or less at it's lowest point) Check out the videos......
The sequencing of these two events is much easier when the upper arm is "inline" with the shoulder.. and the racquet shaft is standing up. ala Fed. Many timing problems, lack of racquet drop, hitches, are result of poor cordination between these two actions.
I certainly don't tend to teach too much stagger starts (sampras) or Roddick's action which has the arm way out to the right and low.. There is perhaps greater racquet head speed potential in these two deliveries, but the timing can be tricky...
Besides what we know about racquet head speed on the serve, is that it really doesn't matter how fast the racquet is entering the downswing.Last edited by 10splayer; 07-16-2013, 12:51 PM.Comment
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The Traditional Trophy Position...RIP?
Here's a classic tennis service motion courtesy of tennis_chiro in bottle's "A New Year's Serve":
Traditionally all great servers came to what is being referred to as the "trophy position". I never did like that term. Like every other stroke in the game the basic sequence is...starting position or ready position, backswing, get in position and forward swing. So from that context the "trophy position" it is the point in the swing where the player is in position to transition from the backswing to the forward swing. In the game that I refer to as classic tennis every single server practically without exception came to some kind of similar position where there could be a nice rhythmic, smooth transition between the two swings.
The trophy's that have been awarded to the winner of tennis tournaments from the beginning of time have the player in this position for a reason. Most likely, too, the winner of that tournament has a very adequate serve comparatively speaking to the rest of the field and you can bet your bottom dollar that player probably came to a position very similar to the one that is represented on the trophy...a position where he is in position to go forward with ease and simplicity to hit his service.
One of the major fundamental differences in the modern game of tennis and the classic game is the absence of net play. In the classic game, often one of the primary tactical objectives of the player was to get to the net behind their serve. In today's game this is a rarely used tactic and the necessity of having a service motion that is conducive to this forward movement is no longer a prerequisite so we have seen a rather large range of "acceptable" service motions. Motions that are designed for great speed and not necessarily for spin, placement and controlled speed. So if you just use your imagination you might picture many of the convoluted windups and wild gyrations that players use nowadays to put the ball in play. Slight exaggeration...what's new?
In the past tennis players that were great champions to run of the mill journeymen were intent on using slice spin, over spin, kick spin and the flat or cannonball serve. The only position that it makes any kind of logistical sense to deliver such variety of delivery with the same motion is from the position that is referred to here as the trophy position or something very close to it. Of course you might see individual nuances in service delivery to service delivery but for the most part the forward swing started from a position that was very similar to each others. The John Newcombe clip above is a perfect example.
The key to the ability to deliver a number of variations with the same delivery is the wrist. Only from an approximation of the classic trophy position can the wrist be slung at different angles on the ball to produce the different spins. I should say the most effective way...perhaps it can be done from a variety of positions. Just that I am not aware that it can be.
From Bill Tilden:
Power and control in service come from the free use of the racquet head and never can be gained by the wild gyrations and acrobatic writhings in which you see so many players indulge.
The above comment seems to suggest that there should be a smooth and rhythmic transition between the backswing and the forward swing. I would suggest that this is possible if and only if the server is in position to do exactly that. Andy Roddick is a perfect example. His motion was pretty limited in the sense of classic serving. He didn't have a great variety of spins and speeds. He had a big bomb. A very big bomb. So it is possible to serve at incredible speeds without attaining the "trophy position"...this is true. But how many more of those trophies would Andy Roddick had if he had served with classic service motion. A little more disguise...a little more variety of spin and speed. A lot more deception. If the classic motion also would have encouraged him to go the the net a bit more to take advantage of his size and his athleticism. It just may have been Andy with seventeen Slams...another slight exaggeration.
I believe that it is imperative to teach the classic motion and Roger's position at the top is where every classic server has started their serve forward swing from. But the fact is...tennis has changed so John is right in the respect that many of the top players do not get to the classic trophy position. But the question is...would their motions be better if they did? Why were they not taught to get there in the first place?
Take Andy Murray for instance. He has been teetering on the brink of being a legitimate contender for Grand Slam winner status and one of the things that has helped to put him over the edge is an improved service motion. Look at Grigor Dimtriov...he has a rather individualistic interpretation of the "get in position" position and he looks to me as if he is not nearly getting the potential out of his motion that he has. The "Baby Fed" could try to imitate this nuance from "The Swiss Maestro's" form here to his benefit...I think.
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Uhh, Andy's serve is as good as anyone to ever play the game. In terms of pure numbers, Andy's combination of speed and spin were off the charts, in fact, greater than even Sampras's. No, the serve was in fact what kept Andy in the game. His basic problem was an average backhand, and a linebackers body and movement skills. And, oh yes, guys named Fed and Nadal.Originally posted by don_budge View PostHere's a classic tennis service motion courtesy of tennis_chiro in bottle's "A New Year's Serve":
Traditionally all great servers came to what is being referred to as the "trophy position". I never did like that term. Like every other stroke in the game the basic sequence is...starting position or ready position, backswing, get in position and forward swing. So from that context the "trophy position" it is the point in the swing where the player is in position to transition from the backswing to the forward swing. In the game that I refer to as classic tennis every single server practically without exception came to some kind of similar position where there could be a nice rhythmic, smooth transition between the two swings.
The trophy's that have been awarded to the winner of tennis tournaments from the beginning of time have the player in this position for a reason. Most likely, too, the winner of that tournament has a very adequate serve comparatively speaking to the rest of the field and you can bet your bottom dollar that player probably came to a position very similar to the one that is represented on the trophy...a position where he is in position to go forward with ease and simplicity to hit his service.
One of the major fundamental differences in the modern game of tennis and the classic game is the absence of net play. In the classic game, often one of the primary tactical objectives of the player was to get to the net behind their serve. In today's game this is a rarely used tactic and the necessity of having a service motion that is conducive to this forward movement is no longer a prerequisite so we have seen a rather large range of "acceptable" service motions. Motions that are designed for great speed and not necessarily for spin, placement and controlled speed. So if you just use your imagination you might picture many of the convoluted windups and wild gyrations that players use nowadays to put the ball in play. Slight exaggeration...what's new?
In the past tennis players that were great champions to run of the mill journeymen were intent on using slice spin, over spin, kick spin and the flat or cannonball serve. The only position that it makes any kind of logistical sense to deliver such variety of delivery with the same motion is from the position that is referred to here as the trophy position or something very close to it. Of course you might see individual nuances in service delivery to service delivery but for the most part the forward swing started from a position that was very similar to each others. The John Newcombe clip above is a perfect example.
The key to the ability to deliver a number of variations with the same delivery is the wrist. Only from an approximation of the classic trophy position can the wrist be slung at different angles on the ball to produce the different spins. I should say the most effective way...perhaps it can be done from a variety of positions. Just that I am not aware that it can be.
From Bill Tilden:
Power and control in service come from the free use of the racquet head and never can be gained by the wild gyrations and acrobatic writhings in which you see so many players indulge.
The above comment seems to suggest that there should be a smooth and rhythmic transition between the backswing and the forward swing. I would suggest that this is possible if and only if the server is in position to do exactly that. Andy Roddick is a perfect example. His motion was pretty limited in the sense of classic serving. He didn't have a great variety of spins and speeds. He had a big bomb. A very big bomb. So it is possible to serve at incredible speeds without attaining the "trophy position"...this is true. But how many more of those trophies would Andy Roddick had if he had served with classic service motion. A little more disguise...a little more variety of spin and speed. A lot more deception. If the classic motion also would have encouraged him to go the the net a bit more to take advantage of his size and his athleticism. It just may have been Andy with seventeen Slams...another slight exaggeration.
I believe that it is imperative to teach the classic motion and Roger's position at the top is where every classic server has started their serve forward swing from. But the fact is...tennis has changed so John is right in the respect that many of the top players do not get to the classic trophy position. But the question is...would their motions be better if they did? Why were they not taught to get there in the first place?
Take Andy Murray for instance. He has been teetering on the brink of being a legitimate contender for Grand Slam winner status and one of the things that has helped to put him over the edge is an improved service motion. Look at Grigor Dimtriov...he has a rather individualistic interpretation of the "get in position" position and he looks to me as if he is not nearly getting the potential out of his motion that he has. The "Baby Fed" could try to imitate this nuance from "The Swiss Maestro's" form here to his benefit...I think.Comment
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Originally posted by 10splayer View Post
This is so true. I was not surprised when John first documented that Roddick's speed/spin ratio even exceeded Pete's. And to add one more thing to 10splayer,s list of Riddick's basic problems, to me he was not a technically sound volleyer, especially on the forehand side, which he used too much of a forehand type grip.Last edited by stroke; 07-17-2013, 07:02 AM.Comment
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Andy actually has a good trophy position
Check Andy's motion at 0:27 seconds and 1minute:11seconds of this video
He may have an unusual way of getting there and I wouldn't recommend imitating it, but Andy actually comes pretty close to a classic "trophy" position in his windup. Furthermore, while his preparation and backswing are unusual or even idiosyncratic, the rhythm of his motion and toss are absolutely repeated every time he serves.
donComment
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Yes, with the volleys, and yes with the Yandell article on Andy. Anyone that want to better understand his ballistic serve should check it out. It's better than excellent.Originally posted by stroke View PostComment
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