Quick Start Tennis

[lobndropshot]

Quick question

If everyone around the world is using quick strart tennis programs what is the U.S. trying to do that will give our players a competitive advantage?

[tennis_chiro]

Gotta catch up first! Unless you know where the wormhole is

Quick question

If everyone around the world is using quick strart tennis programs what is the U.S. trying to do that will give our players a competitive advantage?

Before we can move ahead, we need to catch up. Unless there is some wormhole we can go through to bypass everyone who has moved ahead of us! Being so resistant to using Quickstart could be one reason we are falling behind the rest of the world so much. Maybe the best players aren't using it that much, but it certainly is possible that the resistance to it has some influence. I have a hard time getting kids to work with small courts, shorter rackets and TAUT balls. They think it's cool for a few minutes, but then they want to go back to the balls they are going to use when they go back to other environments where, at least here in LA, they invariably use only full size equipment and courts.

I had one ten-year old who was starting out and couldn't handle his full-size racket. I handed him a 26 inch model and he did much better. I told him to just borrow it for a few weeks until he got a little stronger and felt ready for his full size model. And I was going to stretch that few weeks out as long as I could. Sure enough, after a couple of weeks he comes back and gives me the racket back and says he doesn't need it anymore. I asked him who told him he should use the full size racket and it turned out it was a tennis shop. So now he uses the full size racket, but I notice he chokes it up about 2 inches every chance he gets and can't really handle it.

If there are active leagues where kids are playing with right-sized equipment on right-sized courts and it looks like fun to be part of those leagues, it might be a different story. But I don't see any of that. I hand out foam balls to mothers and dads I see trying to start out their young children. "Please try these." Oh yeah, that was fun. ... But they go right back to the full sized routine, or should I say the "too big, wrong-sized" routine!

You have to see some of the videos of competition on QuickStart courts among kids that have really learned to compete with that stuff. I don't see anything like that. I wish I did.

I just watched SoCal Sectional Main Draw first rounds today. The 16 and 18 year olds hit the ball so much harder than anyone hit the ball 40 years ago with tremendous spin, but god forbid anyone should have to step into the abyss infront of the service line! The players I played with would not have been able to deal with these groundstrokes, but on the other side of the coin, the front court skills I see would not have been acceptable for the bottom guys on our NAIA non-scholarship team in the 60's!

But the 8 year olds playing on 36' and 60' courts demonstrate full court skills superior to what you see in our best juniors.

But please post the information if you find that wormhole!

don

[lobndropshot]

I just watched SoCal Sectional Main Draw first rounds today. The 16 and 18 year olds hit the ball so much harder than anyone hit the ball 40 years ago with tremendous spin, but god forbid anyone should have to step into the abyss infront of the service line! The players I played with would not have been able to deal with these groundstrokes, but on the other side of the coin, the front court skills I see would not have been acceptable for the bottom guys on our NAIA non-scholarship team in the 60's!

But the 8 year olds playing on 36' and 60' courts demonstrate full court skills superior to what you see in our best juniors.

But please post the information if you find that wormhole!

don

Well its not a wormhole but it would be a start if players learned how to hit the ball using the continental grip from day 1. The semi western and the two-handed backhand are very limiting, and on the other the spin and power you can generate is limited only by size and power of the player.

[don_budge]

From the net backwards....the don_budge school of thought

Before we can move ahead, we need to catch up.

I just watched SoCal Sectional Main Draw first rounds today. The 16 and 18 year olds hit the ball so much harder than anyone hit the ball 40 years ago with tremendous spin, but god forbid anyone should have to step into the abyss infront of the service line! The players I played with would not have been able to deal with these groundstrokes, but on the other side of the coin, the front court skills I see would not have been acceptable for the bottom guys on our NAIA non-scholarship team in the 60's!

But please post the information if you find that wormhole!

don

Well its not a wormhole but it would be a start if players learned how to hit the ball using the continental grip from day 1. The semi western and the two-handed backhand are very limiting, and on the other the spin and power you can generate is limited only by size and power of the player.

Very interesting posts gentlemen. tennis_chiro and lobndropshot. QuickStart, American tennis...The One World Order. Connect the dots.

In January of 1978 just as the Prince Racquet concept was being duped on the tennis playing world the USA had 30 players among the top 100 in the world. The USA had 5 players in the top ten. It has been a long downhill precipitous road since. Today the USA has 1 player among the top 20 and 8 players among the top 100...5 of those with rankings of 84 or lower. Is there a correlation.

Soon afterwards...after 1978 that is...the world started to change. It was NAFTA and free trade acts and then the manufacturing jobs in the USA left..."leveling" the playing field for the rest of the world. Much as the playing field has been leveled in professional tennis. Actually it was decimating the playing field here at home. Oh well...that's how it goes with The New World Order.

Then comes the age of "political correctness" and "herd mentality" or "boxed in thinking". Realistically it's brainwashing. Whatever happened to American ingenuity? What is all of this talk of what the rest of the world is doing? Can't we think for ourselves any longer? It's a sad state of affairs...that's all I have to say.

What does this have to do with QuickStart? Everything has to do with everything. That's my point. Causal relationships. Much as the society was misled and politicized to accept conditions that were going to make it that much tougher at home (read disappearing middle class) the tennis world has been reengineered and duped into a methodical and boring malaise. Strong gripped forehands, two hand backhands and mindless serving tactics with power and speed the only tactical thought present.

So what is the wormhole. Innovation. Creativity. Grass roots. Freedom. That used to be the American ticket. Slowly we sank into the world of political correctness, brainwashing and mediocrity...and fear. The Surveillance State. Fear of being different and standing out in a crowd. Fear of voicing the dissident opinion. Fear of speaking truth to power. Somehow we lost the ability to be different and to think differently, in the midst of all this fear.

To me...a traditionalist by nature as I have aged...a revolutionist when young and idealistic...the QuickStart program is another business opportunity for the powers that be in tennis who appear to be in lockstep with a New World Order. It means more lessons, more kiddies equipment...which equates to more dollars. The gist of it is somehow the American tennis scene has been led into a dark hole from which there appears to be no way out. See the numbers...they aren't going to improve in the near future.

What we need is to free our minds...think freely without the USTA or anyone else licensing coaching or standardizing tennis thinking. It isn't working and hasn't since the modern game of tennis has evolved to this point. Americans simply cannot all fit into the same box. It doesn't work that way. It never did.

To be continued...

[bottle]

"The Surveillance State"

Andy Borowitz headline: U.S. Seemingly Unaware of Irony in Accusing Snowden of Spying

[don_budge]

The Irony of QuickStart Tennis...

So what is the wormhole. Innovation. Creativity. Grass roots. Freedom. That used to be the American ticket. Slowly we sank into the world of political correctness, brainwashing and mediocrity...and fear. The Surveillance State. Fear of being different and standing out in a crowd. Fear of voicing the dissident opinion. Fear of speaking truth to power. Somehow we lost the ability to be different and to think differently, in the midst of all this fear.

Andy Borowitz headline: U.S. Seemingly Unaware of Irony in Accusing Snowden of Spying

I remember the text book that we had in a Political Science class back in 1972...the title was "The Irony of Democracy". Lessons long forgotten.

QuickStart tennis programs are a bit suspicious. Whatever happened to tennis for "The Bloody Fun of It"? These programs for little tykes who are often too young to tie their shoes are supposed to get them off on the right foot to play the game of tennis for a lifetime. Why is the emphasis so much on the professional game? Are we setting these little guys and gals up for failure?

It's an interesting development...mini tennis, maxi tennis, midi tennis. Soon we will have micro tennis. Why bother to go to the tennis courts...the game is on your cell phone...kid. What is the point anyways? Give the kids something to do...pull their little muddled brains out of their cell phones. That's noble in itself. But beyond that...what is the point? Why start them off on a one way road to being a tennis mechanic...strong gripped forehand, two hand backhand, mindless bludgeoning serve. What about the artist that lies within each of us?

I'm with lobndropshot and tennis_chiro all of the way. All in. There are some questions to be asked of this program with all of its miniaturization. Is this a creative endeavor or is it a cookie cutting machine?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC14zDk1z3s&feature=related

1. Start the kids at the net initially. Teach them to hit underspin with the racquet going under the ball with a relatively "weak" grip. Two hand backhand volley and one hand backhand volleys...learn to release the "off" hand. Teach them to step towards the net and foot meets the ground as racquet meets ball. Elementary footwork. That's a good place to start.

2. Move them back to the service line and introduce them to the half volley and the middle of the court. Anybody teaching half volleys these days? You have to be able to execute this shot in order to complete the mission to the net. Teach them with a self feed...drop the ball and hit the ball just after it bounce with a short backswing and a short follow through. Underspin and overspin. Baby steps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2UdzaV9HQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZu4zD9bMNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQRgnqWtUOY&feature=related

3. Move them back to the baseline. Keep it simple. Strengthen the grip on the forehand as you go back towards the baseline...now it is time to emphasize topspin but why not teach the defensive volley stroke as a groundstroke as well. Teach the underspin backhand as an extension of the volley and half volley experience. Teach defense as well as attack.

4. Train them to move forwards to the net and to retreat backwards to the baseline. Get them used to the idea of moving forwards and backwards as well as side to side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rZ9dTikAXw&feature=related

5. Introduce the serve early on. Start with placement. Elementary tactics. Aim to the backhand. Aim to the forehand. Aim at the opponent.

My kids love to volley...I can't keep them away from the net. Next thing I know they want to hit one hand backhands...they want to be like me. At this point they are ready for their initial approach shot lessons. Uh ohh...!!! That isn't in the script...is it?

To be continued...

[sfrazeur]

It is quite simple: give kids the court sizes and equipment that they can realistically be able to play on.

You do not give a 5 year-old a 27" racquet because it is too much to handle. The modification is not about making it "easy" as much as it is about making it realistic for a child's height and strength. The same logic should be used for tennis courts. It is unrealistic to expect or ask a child to play on 78' x 27'. On the other hand 36' x 18' is realistic for a 5 year-old to cover.

Good instructors modify the court size all the time. You know when you start drilling novices you send balls close to the player; and as they improve you can move them more. Simple.

[sfrazeur]

To me...a traditionalist by nature as I have aged...a revolutionist when young and idealistic...the QuickStart program is another business opportunity for the powers that be in tennis who appear to be in lockstep with a New World Order. It means more lessons, more kiddies equipment...which equates to more dollars. The gist of it is somehow the American tennis scene has been led into a dark hole from which there appears to be no way out. See the numbers...they aren't going to improve in the near future.

Your political views and xenophobic, american eccentric tennis views are keeping you from seeing the logic right in front of you. Please note that none of that is intended to be an insult. I am respecting you by being honest.

It is simple: give children the right size courts and right bouncing ball as you would give a child the right size racquet.

Yes. Tennis equipment companies are making money selling equipment. Sure. As a Tennis Instructor I make money being a instructing tennis.

[stotty]

I have often wondered if a child uses a racket larger than he should it will almost guarantee a double bend forehand, never a straight arm. With the advent of these diddy, light rackets, will straight arm become more common?

I wonder how many pros back in the days of 15 ounce wooden rackets were straight arm anyway? I know Laver was. You'd thing heavier rackets would force players to bring the elbow closer to the body for support, strength...hence double bend.

All theory on my part....no quantitive evidence. But wouldn't lighter rackets make it easy for children to straighten their arms...reach out?

[don_budge]

So anyways...American tennis and QuickStart tennis programs

QuickStart tennis programs are a bit suspicious. Whatever happened to tennis for "The Bloody Fun of It"? These programs for little tykes who are often too young to tie their shoes are supposed to get them off on the right foot to play the game of tennis for a lifetime. Why is the emphasis so much on the professional game? Are we setting these little guys and gals up for failure?

It's an interesting development...mini tennis, maxi tennis, midi tennis. Soon we will have micro tennis. Why bother to go to the tennis courts...the game is on your cell phone...kid. What is the point anyways? Give the kids something to do...pull their little muddled brains out of their cell phones. That's noble in itself. But beyond that...what is the point? Why start them off on a one way road to being a tennis mechanic...strong gripped forehand, two hand backhand, mindless bludgeoning serve. What about the artist that lies within each of us?

I'm with lobndropshot and tennis_chiro all of the way. All in. There are some questions to be asked of this program with all of its miniaturization. Is this a creative endeavor or is it a cookie cutting machine?

Your political views and xenophobic, american eccentric tennis views are keeping you from seeing the logic right in front of you. Please note that none of that is intended to be an insult. I am respecting you by being honest.

It is simple: give children the right size courts and right bouncing ball as you would give a child the right size racquet.

Yes. Tennis equipment companies are making money selling equipment. Sure. As a Tennis Instructor I make money being a instructing tennis.

So anyways...in post #6 I unveil the don_budge conception of a hypothetical QuickStart tennis program. Theoretically if it were one program of 255...that is 5 for every state in the Union plus five for the Fifty First state of Sweden that just may be enough monkeys and typewriters in order to produce that Holy Grail of the equivalent to the King James Version of the Bible.

It is not that I don't like children...well sometimes I think Rodney Dangerfield had something when he said "now I know why Tigers sometimes eat their young". I teach tennis for a living too...if you want to call it that. But I have a difficult time teaching a little tyke in velcro tennis shoes...in some cases they are too young to know how to tie their silly shoes. Bless them...the little rascals. It’s not going to be easy. The future isn’t bright.

Smaller courts and smaller equipment with all of the assorted color tennis balls do make sense in a sort of convoluted logic of sorts...that is, if you subscribe to the school of thought that you are not wasting your time and effort 99 times out of a 100 with a five to eight or nine year old little darling...someone else's little darling. Thank God. But tennis is a game of making decisions and how many kids that young are capable of making decisions? Some? Ok...I believe you.

But I am all for teaching kids to play. Teaching them to play in general that is. But to try and teach them to play tennis in the professional mode is ridiculous and self defeating. There is nothing more stupid than watching these little tykes in their weak topspin duels. Not to say there isn't a prodigy or two out there but these too are usually burned out by the time they are mature enough to make their own decisions and in many cases they make the logical choice...they want out. They didn't really want to be there in the first place...it was somebody else's idea. Probably Daddy's.

But with all of the courts and facilities in the USA diversity would be the ticket through the wormhole. Diversity as a social program sucks in the sense that instead of concentrating what a population has in common to create unity...it is all of the subtle nuances of cultures and nationalities that must be respected until the whole thing turns to mush. But diversity in competition or economies is a good thing. Instead of having to be endorsed by the USTA with the accreditation and stream lining process it seems if you gave coaches artistic license you would find that the level of tennis in the country might actually improve.

"Your political views and xenophobic, american eccentric tennis views are keeping you from seeing the logic right in front of you. Please note that none of that is intended to be an insult. I am respecting you by being honest."-sfrazeur

But this is the comment that I will relish for all of eternity. Especially the one about xenophobia and honesty. How you managed to use both words in the same thought...the same paragraph is sheer genius. I respect you too. Even the political views mention give me great pleasure...and the bit about the logic...it startled me. My xenophobia extends to one race...the human race as a matter of fact. I can barely exclude my self except that as 10splayer put it...I have a hard time getting over myself. Unlike him. As far as American eccentric tennis views...my views are considered a bit eccentric in America and even more so here in Europe. Another point in my favor. Logic? Forget about it. There isn't any left. But your honesty...does not escape me.

QuickStart...the premise is a fallacy. Kids playing tennis. Ok...but not in the mode of professionals. Plus why not teach them to truly play the game instead of delegating them to the backcourt. Don’t you think so tennis_chiro? I would like to get a preview of the Don Brosseau QuickStart program concept...it wouldn’t surprise me if it was similar to mine...with his own bells and whistles. I think that kids begin to understand the game at around the age of ten...99 times out of 100. That is when it can get interesting and rewarding from a teacher's point of view. But the money just may be in the little ones. The smart money.

[stevenmila]

sure...

there are few Americans in the top 100 - because the us system is all private - rich kids with no drive - lots of coaches looking for the fat on the bacon - parents with some money see tennis as a way to get into college if you are middle class - wealthy kids similarly, just with less drive - all puffing up their college resume - if you look at the NBA, NFL, and NHL - you will see drive to become a pro, those kids aren't worried about college - forget short tennis, long tennis and all the in betweens - when you have kids with drive, drive that is is inspired by money, and socially moving up - you have something to reach for - so clean and prim and proper these kids know - where is the drive, and the true killer instinct - Agassi's father had the right idea - unfortunately few want to coach the poor kids with drive - not much money it. I can only remember my own passion as a kid to hit tennis balls - and sadly seldom see that attitude.

[stotty]

Henman, Lloyd...and Jean Jaques Rosseau

there are few Americans in the top 100 - because the us system is all private - rich kids with no drive - lots of coaches looking for the fat on the bacon - parents with some money see tennis as a way to get into college if you are middle class - wealthy kids similarly, just with less drive - all puffing up their college resume - if you look at the NBA, NFL, and NHL - you will see drive to become a pro, those kids aren't worried about college - forget short tennis, long tennis and all the in betweens - when you have kids with drive, drive that is is inspired by money, and socially moving up - you have something to reach for - so clean and prim and proper these kids know - where is the drive, and the true killer instinct - Agassi's father had the right idea - unfortunately few want to coach the poor kids with drive - not much money it. I can only remember my own passion as a kid to hit tennis balls - and sadly seldom see that attitude.

I cannot speak for Americans because I'm a Brit, but I have never bought into this "rich kids lack drive" generalisation. Tim Henman was a rich kid but had loads of drive, drive that comes with being captivated by the game, drive that comes with being in love with the game. He made number four in the world. Not Bad.

John Lloyd had a more working class background but had far less drive than Henman. He made number 17 in the world. Not bad...could have done better.

With guys like them it comes down to "love of the game" and the will to succeed. Privileged people can be every bit as tough as those from lower down the class chain. It's more to do with how you are brought up rather than the affluence of your surroundings. It's equally possible to spoil a working class child as it is a rich one.

Jean Jaques Rosseau's book Emile, written in 1762, is every bit a valid now as it was then for bringing up children and how not to spoil them. I've used the same wisdom in that book for bringing up my own...250 years after it was written.

[sfrazeur]

Don,

I find your outlook sad. It is almost as if kids are pointless to you unless they can cover the full court. Yes, playing tennis is about decision making. That is why you teach kids how to make decisions. They are shallow and simple decisions at first, but as they age and improve the depth increases. In other words, you do not tell them that they need to tie their shoes--you teach them how to tie their shoes. That's where the reward is with kids that age. When they stand up proud because they did it, they tied their shoes without help, that they played tennis. Some people are not the right fit to teach kids or beginners. No shame in that. Some are just not cut out for it.

[don_budge]

Passion...and tennis...and the engineering of the species.

there are few Americans in the top 100 - because the us system is all private - rich kids with no drive - lots of coaches looking for the fat on the bacon - parents with some money see tennis as a way to get into college if you are middle class - wealthy kids similarly, just with less drive - all puffing up their college resume - if you look at the NBA, NFL, and NHL - you will see drive to become a pro, those kids aren't worried about college - forget short tennis, long tennis and all the in betweens - when you have kids with drive, drive that is is inspired by money, and socially moving up - you have something to reach for - so clean and prim and proper these kids know - where is the drive, and the true killer instinct - Agassi's father had the right idea - unfortunately few want to coach the poor kids with drive - not much money it. I can only remember my own passion as a kid to hit tennis balls - and sadly seldom see that attitude.

Passion is a key operative word...thank you stevenmila. Tennis is a special game...compared to all of the rest. Things have changed though. You are right...when you talk in terms of "drive" in terms of monetary reward. The modern ways. It sort of changes things...the purity is missing. Where is the passion? Where is that primal drive?

A big part of my message is that the primal drive is being engineered right out of the species...and not just in terms of tennis.

I wrote a little about what I would provide in a QuickStart program...and part of my reasoning is to engineer some of that true love of the game back into it. Playing the whole court gives the game boundless limits...it opens the thing up.

If we are to teach the kids tennis...we can only try to lead them into it. Then it is up to them. Afterall it is an individual endeavor. There are no teammates to pick you up when things are not going your way. You are left to your own devices. That is the way the game is played...much as it is played in life. These are the hard facts of life.

You are right. The game has become privatized...institutionalized. It is a business...that much is true. But it could be so much more. And it is.

[vrc10s]

All court tennis

When Don_Budge talks about all court tennis he sounds like the proponets of Quick Start tennis or whatever name they use now. The idea is that with scaled balls, racquets and courts the younger players can come to net, use underspin and topspin, and tactics other that moon balls. The players can cover the net width wise and still cover lobs. The shorter distances (smaller courts) and more time (slower balls) should help them be successful and encourge them to try different tactics.

I use the orange balls and 60 foot courts and like them. I don't teach many under 6 classes so I don't use red balls that much, but know pros that do and enjoy them.