Rafael Nadal vs. Novak Djokovic...a Tactical Discussion (to jbill)

[don_budge]

Thanks for the great question...jbill!

don_budge...Would you mind explaining what you mean when you say Djokovic lost to Nadal because of his, "inability to play his forehand reverse crosscourt as well as he would have liked?" And could you explain a little bit more about what you believe Djokovic's tactics were in general to beat Nadal?

jbill

Tactics is inevitably a nebulous discussion. All of the possibilities are infinite when you take into consideration players relative strengths and weaknesses. When you take into consideration the tactical acumen of the players involved. When you take into consideration the ability of players to implement their tactical objectives. The discussion is more qualitative as opposed to the quantitative discussion of technique. Often the strengths and weaknesses are directly related to technical issues. But the depth of the discussion is one of fitness, psychological and emotional in nature as well.

During the course of marathon tennis matches that we have witnesses by the likes of Nadal and Djokovic the players bare everything that they have on a mortal level in their quest to vanquish the opposition. This kind of discussion is a tremendous undertaking...so much must be read into between the lines.

Modern tennis is essentially a game of power and speed and much of the subtlety and finer intrinsic and artistic aspects of the game have been engineered out of it. Such a shame and we should somehow begin a discussion about how to engineer those extinct aspects back into the game. Many are too young to remember...to know what I am talking about.

But here you go jbill...here is some food for thought. I have written a bit about the two Goliath's of the modern game of tennis...about their titanic struggles against each other. It is afterall...probably the most entertaining aspect about the modern game that exists. Although the game is showing some initial signs that things may be in flux once again. It takes an experienced eye...a discerning eye to notice. We can only hope.

But anyways here are a few posts that I have written about the tactical game being played between these two. Djokovic seemed to have turned the corner on Nadal and at one point had taken 10 of twelve matches from him. But recently it looks as if Nadal once again has the upper hand taking 4 out of the last 5...albeit they were all meetings on Nadal's favorite surface...clay.

I hope that you find these posts interesting or amusing or any combination of the two. Please feel free to add on anyone. The discussion of tactics is less confined that that of technique...afterall you either pat the dog or you do not. But with tactics and all of the combinations and permutations of all of the factors and issues...the conversation is really infinite in scope...isn't it?

[don_budge]

From the thread...Djokovic's Forehand: Forward Swing, post #9 (August 17, 2011)

Technique and Tactics...Patterns Djokovic vs. Nadal

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/patternsarchive/pro_men/djokovic_def_nadal_iw_2011/djokovic_nadal_strokecat.html

I will leave it to the technique gurus to sift through all of the nuances of technique because they have done a very thorough job of it...all that I can add is his technique is pretty darn solid. I would like to have a word with regard to how these technique improvements can affect and improve a player’s ability to implement a winnable strategy.

Regards Djokovic's dominant eye...it would be interesting to note if it is his right eye that is dominant.

Some observations from the patterns videos of Djokovic and Nadal:

Nadal is standing back so far to receive the Djokovic serve...and turning his back on Djokovic after wide serves to his backhand. A clear demonstration of an improvement in the service motion and therefore service strategy on the part of Djokovic. He realizes there is a virtual gold mine wide to the Nadal backhand...if he can effectively access it.

Djokovic is going to the Nadal backhand repeatedly on every single stroke during every given point when he is not in position to hit to the Nadal forehand aggressively. When he is playing his backhand down the line it appears that he is trying to establish depth as the determining factor. Even if Nadal manages to run around his backhand to his "feared" inside out forehand, he has been effectively neutralized by Djokovic's depth of shot. When he is playing his forehand to the Nadal backhand, it appears that depth is option number one but he is also using a change in depth, pace and spin to further disrupt Nadal’s balance and comfort...by hitting wide.

After Djokovic has established the tactic that the game is going to be played on the basis of his forehand to the Nadal backhand he is freer to take liberties on the Nadal forehand as Nadal begins to anticipate defending on the backhand side. This is evident on the service game of Djokovic as well. Repeatedly gunning at the backhand, then coming up the forehand side as the element of surprise. Mixing up the location of the service when he is serving to either the backhand and the forehand...one into the body, then one wide or up the middle.

Superior depth from Djokovic due to flatter groundstrokes. Once he has Nadal off balance, Nadal is hitting shorter and shorter. On short returns by Nadal, Djokovic is in position to attack the weaker of the two sides, the backhand. He does so with intelligence, by mixing up the wide angle with the deep bomb into the corner. Again, once he has established this sort of pattern it will open up the Nadal forehand, which he now has the option to attack as well.

Djokovic net points on serve once again demonstrate his resolve to pick on the Nadal backhand by hitting deep serves into the corner forcing one hand returns and spinning backwards recoveries from Nadal.

Whatever technical improvements Djokovic has experienced epiphanies with regard to his strokes are overshadowed with the maturity of his tactics. That being said...technical improvements allow a player more flexibility in their tactics as they have a wider range of possibilities in their shots which is reflected in their ability to implement their strategy.

Clearly, the patterns of points that we have here courtesy of the website allows us to clearly examine the strategy and motives of Djokovic and how improvements to the technique of his service motion, his backhand and probably his forehand as well, have contributed to big time gains in the department of tactics. Djokovic is dissecting Nadal on his service games by first establishing his ability to pull Nadal off the court with his assortment of wide serves. So many times Nadal is seen using one hand on his backhand or spinning around with his back to his opponent in a vain attempt to recover his vantage in the point. This is not a recommended technique...turning your back to your opponent.

It appears that somehow Djokovic has come up with the idea that depth is a key to beating Nadal, particularly when it comes to hitting off his backhand side. He clearly finds that the best way to neutralize an attacking Nadal off the forehand side is to keep him deep...where he is less invincible. He also controls the middle of the court...by never allowing Nadal to get in position on the forehand side of his court to hurt him. This is no accident...it is a tactical decision. Invariably when Djokovic goes wide to the Nadal forehand it is with the intent to hurt him. One of the keys to a winnable strategy is neutralizing the opponents strength and the big strength of Nadal...and perhaps his only overwhelming strength, is the forehand. Another huge factor in sound tactics is to find ways to exploit your opponents weaker side and in Nadal’s case this is definitely his backhand. Djokovic clearly establishes that whenever he is in a position to dictate...the game is going to be played the way he wants it to be played and this would be his strength to Nadal’s weakness, or his forehand to his opponents backhand.

I was trying to make this argument for Federer’s loss to Nadal at the French. My contention was that Roger did not have a winnable game plan based on his relative strengths to his opponent’s relative weaknesses. He must establish that the game is going to be played on the Nadal backhand...ala Djokovic. If you allow Nadal to dictate with his forehand...it is going to most likely be an uphill struggle. But if you effectively carry out a game plan that is predicated by establishing play on the Nadal backhand you will find that the forehand is somewhat neutralized, at least it is not as lethal, and he will make some rather uncharacteristic errors with it as well.

Incredible demonstrations of patterns complemented with the technique resource...John. Well organized. It all adds up to a sound tactical lesson too.

[don_budge]

From the thread...2011 U. S. Open Tennis Championships, post #39 (September 30, 2011)

Considerable thought...leads to possibilities.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1933&highlight=djokovic+tactics+nadal

Rafa needs some new patterns and new weapons against Djoko.

He needs to improve and to me his biggest weakness is his backhand return --he justs gives too many big points away against mediocre serves. Even Murray was serving and volleying to rafa's backhand in the deuce court with great success.

Nadal is getting beat on neutral rallies which is why it's so important for him to creat advantage if he can on the return.

...what do you guys think Nadal should specifically start working on in practice in order to have a better chance against Djoko?

Well gsheiner...after giving things considerable thought, I have come up with a couple of ideas, for Nadal. Not that he would ever in his lifetime listen to me...afterall, who am I? Boy...there's a great question for me to ponder, who am I?

But anyways I was looking at the two views of Nadal's backhand on this month's issue of Tennisplayer.net and it occurred to me that his technique on his backhand is not half bad. His technique is quite nice on both his two handed and his slice. I very much like in particular his footwork and transfer of weight on both shots. I believe he has more potential to be developed on his backhand...room for improvement. I disagree with the school of thought that requires players to be "perfect" in their technique...we all must learn to deal with our shortcomings and tennis players are no different. They must learn how to manage. So how is it that Djokovic is beating him by exploiting him on his backhand. The answer to that is I believe one of tactics. Nadal needs to develop more options on his backhand side.

1. Djokovic is manhandling Nadal on the service. His assortment of wide deliveries and up the middle has Nadal befuddled to the point that many times he turns his back on his opponent after his futile efforts on wide backhands. One idea...and it is only an idea and flies in the face of conventional wisdom which is blast away at all costs, is to learn to float, as well as drive the ball back into the Djokovic backhand corner or attempt to keep it low at his feet. By doing this he of course risks coming up short and having the little yellow pill shoved down his throat but on the other hand if he successfully gets the ball in play on the returns that he is currently outright losing the point on, he will at least have a percentage of points that he can neutralize and reengage Djokovic in his subsequent baseline duel. Winning a couple of points in this manner may actually result in the break of serve that he is desperately in need of. Nadal will probably have to choose one side or the other to be somewhat aggressive on with regard to the return of serve on any given serve which will leave him more or less playing defense on the other side. The question is...which defensive shot will give him the best chance of neutralizing the point. If I'm Nadal...or anybody that is concerned about his future, I am studying the McEnroe return of serve. He was a master at the neutralizing shots...and he wasn't blasting the cover off of the ball.

2. Nadal could develop a third option on his backhand...to begin with and this may require some modification to his technique by developing the ability to leave the racquet head down into the ball instead of lifting up. If Nadal were the tactical genius of say a McEnroe or a Nastase he might have seventeen or eighteen options available on his backhand. The option that I would first like to experiment with is a short slice backhand that will have the effect of drawing his opponent into the forecourt, either on the forehand or the backhand and cause his opponent to hit up to him. Tactically, when you have an opponent with an extreme grip such as the Djokovic forehand one tends to theorize that the weakness of such an extreme grip is on a ball that stays low and away. His grip is obviously very strong on balls that are in the mid to high range so I would be shooting for him to be hitting balls around his ankles where he may be weaker...make him dig as much as I can. Llodra was successful in this tactic against Djokovic at the Paris Masters on a relatively fast court. Coincidentally, both Llodra and Nadal are both left handed and this has traditionally been a favorite strategy of left handers...get the opponent to hit up on the forehand then move him deep into the backhand corner. Again this is an opportunity to play around with the idea in number one...move him as long a distance as possible and then move him back. Keep him off balance with change of speed. Tomic was somewhat successful using some variation of this tactic on the Djokovic backhand at Wimbledon and so was Dogopolov at the Open. Neither had the experience or the overall moxy to pull this tactic off to completion. Most of you are probably to young to remember Arthur Ashe's defeat of a heavily favored Jimmy Connors at Wimbledon many years ago. This is not a option based on pure speed...it is a combination of speed and placement.

3. Nadal needs to develop balls that are deep into the right handers backhand corner...and this will probably mean that he must flatten out his backhand some and at the same time feel confident enough to go down the line...much as Djokovic has done in the last year. This would be something in the middle of his slice and normal two handed backhand. From the two views of his backhand in this months issue it looks to me that he is capable of such a change...the question is will his camp correctly identify the tactical deficiencies he currently has against the Djokovic game. Djokovic currently controls the middle part of the court and this is where Nadal needs to reassert himself if he has any hopes of competing with his Serb nemesis.

4. Another tactic that Nadal may wish to add to his repertoire is using his forehand to go short and wide with spin to his opponents backhand, much as Djokovic is using against him. It seems to me that Nadal prefers to bludgeon his opponents deep into the backhand corner until he gets the ball that he likes to go up the line with. If he adds an option such as the one that Djokovic has successfully employed against him it may give him another element of surprise.

The other notable weakness...or chink in the Nadal armor is his serve of course. Numerous other posters have referenced this. In this case his technique needs to be modified because it is not up to the demands of the task. His lack of a free range of motion in his abbreviated version results in a reduction in possible deliveries in terms of speed, spin and placement. This is simply giving up too much against an opponent like Djokovic. His motion is inferior and without a change he will probably have a difficult time...no make that an impossible time of coming up with the level of confidence in his service game required to raise the level of his overall game significantly. Tommy English (aka tpatennis) told me an interesting story in this department but I leave it to him to share it with us if he chooses...I wouldn't want to steal his thunder.

Nadal certainly must reassess things with regards to the control of the middle of the chess board...or rather the tennis court if he has any hopes of regaining some semblance of control. It doesn't appear to me that his deficiencies are so much technical as tactical...except with regard with his serve. Playing from the reflection in the mirror (left handed) there is a built in advantage in the service game and Nadal at this point has not actualized this built in asset. While an argument can be made that Djokovic's improvements have been technical in nature, to me this is missing the point. The fact of the matter is Djokovic is playing smarter tennis. Any improvements he has made in his technique he has also capitalized on in the tactical department...which is the bottom line, to winning tennis matches.

Federer in the same respect may profit in this analysis...if I might be so bold to suggest. He does not employ the slice backhand as much as he might, or as much as he used to for that matter and he seems to prefer to go with the cross court topspin which unfortunately for him goes right into the teeth of his two toughest opponent's strengths currently. There were moments during his match against Djokovic when he used the slice quite effectively but he never seemed to stick with it on any consistent basis. Again, I don't so much believe that his technique is defective as his tactical frame of reference is deficient...and that being said he has made a rather substantial living exploiting two handed backhands. Over the years Roger has demonstrated his capability of hitting low and wide to the two hander forcing them to use one hand...then he has them.

One tactical ploy that seems to be effective against two handed backhands is the change of speed tactic...nothing balls and subtle variations of spin and depth...combined with power and speed. I prefer to slice my opponents up a bit before applying the coup de gras. It may just be a bit tougher to deal with this tactic on the two handed side because of the lack of options inherently available with two hand backhands. The strength of the two hand backhand is not it's flexibility...as in number of options. As I mentioned before, a McEnroe or a Nastase seemed to have a whole boatload of options...all designed to confuse, befuddle or infuriate the opponent. I think that they would both of made great matadors with their mercurial ability to slice up their opponents and then applying...ever so lovingly, the fatal stab. Maybe there is hope for Nadal...seeing that he is from Spain.

[gsheiner]

DB,

You've identified quite a few subtle adjustments that Nadal could make.

Let's look at this point from the patterns archive

point


In this point Nadal hits 2 slice backhands, both to me which are ineffective. And, although he wins the point he really would lose this point most times as Djokovic has an easy down the line forehand winner that he misses.

The first slice is poor positionally. He would do better ,as you suggest, hitting this ball much shorter and with more of a crosscourt angle so that he would really make Djoko move forward , to the right, and then have to hit up with his Extreme grip.

The second slice is the one we see Nadal most often hit. This one may be hit from a slightly wider position than he normally hits it from, but he usually slices up the line from his backhand corner. His goal here is usually very defensive as he tends to hit his slice when he feels he is in trouble.

However , I usually see djokovic run around the Nadal slice, hit a big forehand, and take control of the point whenever Nadal hits his slice.

I've never analyzed a Nadal match but I would be willing to bet that he loses a very high percentage of points when he is forced to hit his slice.

You mention the fact that a classic one handed player like Mac or Nastase might have 15-20 options on the backhand. The one shot that I think that they would hit all the time would be the inside out slice up the line that tails away, and makes it really difficult for his opponent to run around and hit a forehand.

I always get the feeling that Nadal tends hit the outside of the ball on his slice. This causes it to curve back to the middle of the court slightly and makes it easier for someone like Djoko to set up a forehand.

I also feel that Nadal takes too much pace off his slice and thus it loses it effectiveness from this point of view as well.

As for return, I think Nadal is at his best when rips the crosscourt return. It makes it dangerous to serve and volley and probably will cause guys not to serve and volley which is what Nadal wants.

So, maybe a lesson from you on how to hit different parts of the ball on the slice to create different side spins would help Rafa.

[don_budge]

From the thread...The 2012 Australian Open (post #32)...January 30, 2012

So, maybe a lesson from you on how to hit different parts of the ball on the slice to create different side spins would help Rafa.

Excellent thoughts gsheiner...thank you for your post. Subtle tactical minutiae in variety of spin with the slice backhand.

Below is some tactical discussion related to the Nadal vs. Djokovic rivalry but here the talk is about Federer's decision making process...which is only a degree of separation from making it Djokovic's business.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2025&highlight=djokovic+tactics+nadal&page=4

Decisions...decisions. The crux of Tennis.

Decisions, you know, can sometimes be difficult. As difficult as pulling teeth. I'm talking about Federer here...and you and me.

Going into Thursday's match with Rafael Nadal I had studied Federer for two matches against Tomic and Del Potro. I took as much information from those two matches as I could, which I believe was considerable, and came up with the possibilities that I wrote about earlier in this thread.

To say that I wanted Federer to win is an understatement. It was almost as if I was playing myself, as if my life depended upon the outcome, defending the concept of traditional or classic tennis against that wrecking machine...instead of watching the match from an old, but warm and cozy, Swedish farmhouse out in the country. In the middle of nowhere. The feeling in my gut was an old familiar feeling, tense, volatile and cursing what I concluded to be the stupidity of the decisions that I was witnessing before me on the television. I reminded myself of the time I was watching the 2011 French Open and I was admonishing "The Man" to keep the ball on the Nadalian backhand and to keep it off the forehand at all costs. My wife can attest to this...for the duration of both matches I repeatedly asked the question, louder and louder, "why are you hitting at the forehand because every time you do you lose the point?". It is almost a foregone conclusion. He failed to figure this out and soon we will see once again if Djokovic will stick to his game plan and attempt to once again dismantle the Spanish Stallion by dissecting him with prejudice on the weaker side.

My study of Federer brought me to one interesting conclusion though. He is most vulnerable to a player such as Nadal for one basic fundamental reason. Nadal is left handed. Roger Federer's tennis game is most suitable for playing against right handed players, although he can adapt his game to lesser left handed opponents that do not possess the lethal forehand capabilities. Let me attempt to explain.

Roger's service strategy did not focus enough or effectively with the goal being to exploit the Nadal backhand. It seemed to me that far too often he was going for the big one up the middle on the deuce side and outside in the advantage court. This is an effective strategy for serving on a right handed backhand but it did not make enough of an impression on Nadal to keep him pinned down on the Federer service game. When Roger is concentrating on pulling Nadal off the court wide to the deuce side he is starting the point off on the right foot. I believe he needed to establish this pattern first before ripping the big one's to the forehand. It appeared to me that he was working in reverse.

Federer's approach game is puzzling to me and I have written posts in the past where I have questioned his approach tactics and his volley technique for that matter. I have suggested that he may be challenged in this regard. I was horrified to see him approach so often with overspin...everytime he did Nadal had more or less a big swing on anything he could chase down, and he chased down everything. Why in the world doesn't he choose to use various adaptations of the Federer Featherer that I wrote about in the Interactive Forum here? It seems to me on most of his approaches he needs to force Nadal to play a shot from a position that he is less than comfortable with...he needs to throw him off balance as much as possible. Using underspin would be a change of pace and perhaps by using the underspin as a surgeon uses their scalpel he could manage to dissect his opponent more effectively. From the position that Federer was in the court he could of had a number of options for instance off the forehand side. He may of slid the ball short and with side spin, he could of laid the ball deep into the corner or he may of used a more delicate approach short and soft to the Nadal backhand. What side spin or underspin may lack in pace it makes up for in deception...you can more easily change the direction of the shot by using more of a volley stroke than opting for the drive. This is from the outdated classic tennis model of course. I wonder what Tony Roche would say to that. Anything would of been better than the forehand drive that he was using up the line to the forehand...he paid the price for his faulty decisions and lack of a clear cut game plan.

Federer's inability to exploit the backhand is certainly a complex problem and to solve a problem of such a magnitude, it takes number one a game plan. If there was a game plan it was not apparent to me...he played virtually the same style and tactics against Tomic and Del Potro. These tactics are fine against the prototypical right handed modern player with a two hand backhand and a strong gripped forehand but against a player out of the mold of Nadal it is essentially a death warrant. I don't know how many times he has brought down the big Swedish Tree, Robin Söderling, using the same tactic...but it doesn't work against Nadal because he is hitting right into the teeth of an eating machine. His forehand is geared to the right handed backhand and his backhand is the same. When he did go at the Nadal backhand he never got into the same kind of trouble that the Nadal forehand presents to him but he lost patience...after one or two, possibly three whacks at the backhand side he inevitably lost patience and made the huge mistake of reverting back to his opponents forehand and he paid the price. Again, it appears to me that underspin may have been at least part of the solution. Certainly if he could move Nadal wide to the forehand with underspin off the backhand it would not give Nadal the kind of ball that he would prefer to swing at. At the same time Federer was not effective at all using his topspin backhand down the line and using some kind of ball that is skidding and staying lower to Nadal's backhand would of neutralized much of his aggressiveness.

From Nadal's side of the match he did everything that he needed to do. I think his serve looked to be more effective and some of the anomalies in his motion seem to have been ironed out. He certainly glued into the Federer backhand. On that note too, it seemed that Roger was solely intent on returning with a drive when some kind of chop or variation of underspin would have been more effective. How many weakly hit overspin return of serve drives did Nadal have to swing at with his massive forehand? Too many as it was. Nadal's backhand appeared to be much more solid as well but I attribute much of this to Federer's inability to understand the problem and come up with an effective solution.

This champion did not make the right decisions that he needed to make if he was to have any chance of defeating his opponent. Even my wife agrees with me...but of course she knows very little about tennis.

[don_budge]

From the thread...The 2012 Australian Open (post #36)...January 30, 2012

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2025&highlight=djokovic+tactics+nadal&page=4

Dictation...

Even though Djokovic has lost the first set I get the impression that he can dictate the play. That is, when he chooses he can get the game onto the backhand of Nadal. When the game is played in this manner Djokovic seems to have the advantage. But on the other hand, Nadal's forehand continues to be a wrecking ball from just about anywhere on the court. That being said...it looks as if Djokovic plays some very neutral balls just slightly to the right of the center hash mark which does not give Nadal as much angle to play with.

The first set looked to be a bit of cat and mouse from the Djokovic camp...much like the first few rounds of a heavyweight boxing match. Soon we will see what his true intentions are and what his ultimate strategy is to disrupt the Nadalian Freight Train. I think that Djokovic has been playing the forehand of Nadal quite a bit with his true intentions being to open up the backhand side. The old Tilden riddle about disrupting the strength before dissecting the weakness.

I am going to play tennis now. Feeling a bit antsy...I need to be in motion more that I need to be a fan today. Enjoy the match my friends!

[don_budge]

From the thread...The 2012 Australian Open (post #40)...January 30, 2012

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2025&highlight=djokovic+tactics+nadal&page=4

Heavyweight Boxing...and Modern Tennis

My analogies are more and more frequently comparing the modern game of tennis to boxing and there was no better example of that than the six hour plus, five set final played out in Melbourne, Australia Sunday well into the night down under. Talk about a "Journey to the End of the Night"...Ferdinand Celine style.

I watched the first set myself, Stotty and felt that even though Djokovic had lost that he was in command of the match. I always know what the score is...well with women sometimes it is hard to know, at least until they announce it. But from my point of view Djokovic was dictating play...not by a wide margin mind you because the Spanish Stallion Nadal has made some rather noticeable adjustments in his play in order to due battle with his Serbian nemesis...and he used these in good stead to vanquish Mr. Federer in the semifinals. I left after the first set...went and played a bit myself, did a bit of shopping on the way home, drove home came in and sat down and watched the entire fifth set. Happy as hell that I did not sit there and watch the whole thing.

The biggest and most noticeable improvement in the Nadalian repertoire appears to be his service...not only the motion but in his tactics as well. But of course technique and tactics always go hand in hand, don't they? He kept Federer pinned down in the backhand corner in both the deuce and the ad courts throwing in the occasional bomb to the forehand side just to keep him honest. This he used to the most obvious advantage on the Federer backhand as Roger tried to drive his backhand return throughout the match when he should of eventually at least tried to return with some kind of slicing motion...anything to get the ball deeper in the court because Nadal was having a feast on his short and weak returns. This tactic against Djokovic did not have the same disarming results because of the inherent ability to drive the two handed backhand on the return but still Nadal was serving very capably right till the end of the match. If he wasn't overwhelming Djokovic, he was at least keeping him a bit off balance.

The Nadal backhand appears to of been beefed up as well and if my imagination is not playing tricks on me, as it frequently does, his slice also seemed to find the deeper reaches of the court as well. His two handed version was being hammered even harder than I ever recall and it was no trip to the beach on the backhand of Nadal this week...but that being said it was a better location than anything on the forehand which was simply monstrous. Even in the fifth set, after playing at break neck speed for over six hours he was still hammering winners from everywhere. Instead of calling him a werewolf...let's call him a Spanish Thor. The look on his face after all of the strenuous effort over the course of the long match was one of fire and passion...and the flame was never fully extinguished even after the match point was securely in the pocket of the Serbian Grim Reaper...he with the lethal scythe.

As far as it being a heavyweight bout...none of you will argue with me there. Djokovic appeared to be on the ropes in the fifth...he was being pounded by the Nadal serve and forehand one two combination for the entire fifth set...the proverbial fifteenth round. He looked dazed and confused...only to manage to pull himself together to hold serve time and time again and to break back from an early break. That was no act...he was on emergency management control and just trying to hang around for the final bell for a decision in his favor, quite possible he was trying to hang on for the tiebreaker. His hopes for a knockout were fading with his energy and his only hope was to hang around to the end and position himself for a swing at a match point. He got his wish in the final game and concluded the whole thing with a winner to the Nadal forehand. Game, set and match!

Nadal was heard to be making comments that Djokovic was putting on some kind of act as if he wasn't truly exhausted from the tennis...which is sort of ludicrous as they both required chairs after the officials noticed that both player would conceivably pass out in front of the adoring fans...before their eyes. Fortunately they both remained conscious and were able to pick up their huge checks...which required further Herculean effort as well I am sure.

[don_budge]

From the thread...2012 French Open Championships...Paris, France (post #46)) June 11,

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?p=17674&highlight=djokovic+tactics+nadal#post17674

The 2012 French Open Mens Singles Final...Part 1

This is a great finish to an otherwise pretty dull tournament. The tennis is all the same. Pound...pound...pound the ball. It is like watching Tiger Woods play golf and using his driver on every shot. Monotonous. Boring.

But when these two heavyweights are going at it...modern tennis takes on its own definition. It is all about power and speed. Whether you like it or not...it is what it is and these two guys just happen to be the best in the world right now at doing this. When they are going at it toe to toe the results are really quite impressive and less predictable than the rest of the herd. They have effectively separated themselves from the herd.

I believed it was the first point of the fourth set that went something like 44 strokes. Quite an amazing point. Each player blistered shot after shot into the others court with neither player giving an inch. Talk about going at it toe to toe. This is when it makes sense to compare this kind of action to heavyweight boxing. When the first point of the fourth set was finally concluded...I thing Djokovic won it, both players were dazed and spent but they immediately were shaking off the effects on their bodies getting ready for the next point...the next exchange. This is after all...heavyweight tennis. No rest for the weary.

Nadal came out of the box in the beginning of the match very quickly and landed a series of thudding body shots on Djokovic. Each time Nadal got a hold of a forehand he made Djokovic pay the price. Like a Smokin' Joe Frazior left...he was repeatedly finding his mark and pounding the Serb into submission. Lucky for Nole...he knows how to take a punch and absorb the blows without submitting. He kept hanging around and persisting...hitting hard to the lefties strength to open up the weaker backhand, which by the way is no picnic to hit to anymore. The Nadal backhand looks to me to be noticeably stronger and it makes me wonder just what it was that he did technique wise to beef it up. Technique freaks? Any thoughts?

Before you know it Nadal is up two sets to none and he appears to have Djokovic on the ropes, setting him up for the knockout blow. Djokovic has become quite the wily competitor against Nadal though and in his mind if he can weather the initial storm the Spanish Conquistador will likely punch himself out after a while, then Djokovic can go to work with his strategy of exposing the weaker backhand of Nadal. He subtly will work the Spaniard over to the forehand then he follows up with a sequence of shots to the backhand pinning him to that side of the court, varying the depth and angle to open up the court for his knockout blows to either side and off either side...which he is very capable of administering as well.

The first point of the fourth set marked a turning point in the match. At this point the Serb has worked the Spaniard from side to side for a couple of hours and there is now just a little less juice on the forehand. After controlling the tempo and flow of the third set now Djokovic has his teeth in the match and he is like a pitbull and he is not going to let go. The fourth set appears to be controlled by Djokovic and some wet and heavy tennis balls, as he is up 2-1 and Nadal can consider himself fortunate to have been granted a reprieve by the rain...otherwise he looked to be on his way out. Djokovic had effectively done a bit of a rope-a-dope on Nadal...weathered the storm for two sets and had come out swinging away as if he had nothing to lose. Just like he said he would. Nadal got a lucky break from Mother Nature.

Going into the day...things could get a bit dicey for both players. Djokovic will need to secure the fourth set and he will have to do it with Nadal having his legs securely under him once again. Last night it appeared that Djokovic was rocking Nadal with everything he had and was about to knock out the Spaniards lights. It looked to be Goodnight Iran for Nadal. Now that he has his legs back under him however it changes things. If he comes out like he did in the first two sets when he was fresh as a daisy it may be the kiss of death for Djokovic. That forehand of Nadal makes an ugly sound off his racquet when he hits it flush...it sounds as if all of the air in the stadium is being sucked out of it. The vacuous forehand. Ugly as it looks and sounds it is at least as effective as a Smokey Joe left hook on his good days. Just ask Mohammed Ali how good it was.

Djokovic really has his work cut out for him. He worked really hard to set Nadal up for the knockout in the fifth set but now he will not have that luxury. He has to pick up right where he left off. There isn't any time for any cute stuff now. He has to play like he has nothing to lose from the get go and not let up. Neither of these guys thinks he is going to lose this match. I give a slight upper hand to Nadal...with his break from the overnight delay. But I wouldn't rule out the Serb...in his quest for a fourth Slam title in a row. He doesn't want to let that prize get away from him. He may never be in that position again and it took a Herculean effort to get there.

Stay tuned for Part 2. Finally some drama!

[don_budge]

From the thread...2012 French Open Championships...Paris, France (post #48) June 11,

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?p=17674&highlight=djokovic+tactics+nadal#post17674

The French Open Mens Singles Final...Part 2

I think don_budge is right, the game is getting monotonously powerful. The only way I can think of to combat this would be to reduce the head sizes of tennis rackets...maybe by ten square inches each year until we get back to around 75 square inches. I cannot think of any other solution....can you?

The problem is there is no substitute for power. You have to take power away from the game if you want to have artistry and all court play back again.

I have to admit that I did not see the conclusion. Just in case you are interested I had to take the car to the garage for some bad news and I gave my golf coach a tennis lesson and then we had lunch before I had to return to the little club in the small conservative town Skultorp in Sweden...The Skultorp Tennis Club. It is a quaint little club...but it has a magic all of its own. I guess that I sort of have something to do with that. Do you believe in magic?

I am not so sorry that I missed the conclusion. The rain delay screwed up everything. Djokovic had Nadal on the ropes and the only thing that saved the Spaniard's ass...was the rain. The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain...but this time it fell on the Serbian Djokovic's parade or something to that effect. The match as it stood on Sunday evening was going to come down to a fifth set and wouldn't it of been something if it was even more exciting than the Aussie Final between the same two contestants. Each match between these two seems to get bigger and bigger. Fantastic stuff. I actually can appreciate the athleticism llll and 10splayer. Great stuff.

Let me say something about the tactical play of Djokovic. It was a very interesting question that my fellow Swede Mats Wilander asked him in an interview on his "Game, Set and Mats" program that airs on the ESPN of Europe...Eurosport. Mats was asking him about how he develops his tactics for matches against specific opponents and our Serbian Star gave him a nice account of his coach, some other advisors, studying films of previous matches and the like. But the concluding comment that he made was a tell all...he said that in the end...at the end of the day it is him who is on the court all by himself and it was he alone who would bear the responsibility for his tactical approach. Well this comment made me like the young man a bit more for his mature outlook on a very important aspect of our beloved game. Tactics.

Over the spread of a five set match I really admire his approach to taming the Spanish Stallion. It looks to me...and this is based on a spread of a number of finals that I have seen between the two, that Djokovic is very comfortable using a bit of a "rope-a-dope" against the left handed slugger. The "rope-a-dope" for those too young to know about this strategy, was employed by the legendary boxer Mohammed Ali against the likes of George Foreman and Joe Frazier. Basically Ali would lay back against the ropes in the boxing ring and more or less beckon his adversary to punch themselves out as he did nothing but deflect the majority of their punches into harmless deflections. After a number of rounds of throwing punches at the sly and hard to tag Ali, the fighters inevitably found themselves suddenly gasping for air and then found themselves horrified that a suddenly rejuvenated Ali was doing a tap dance all over there heads and bodies. Over the course of a fifteen round heavyweight boxing match if you somehow underestimate how much energy you have depleted while your opponent has somehow been pacing himself and saving his energy you might find yourself taking a terrific ass kicking when you discover you don't have any legs under you.

This is what it appears Djokovic sort of employs against Nadal. Usually early in the match he plays the ball to the forehand and strength of Nadal. He ends up taking it a bit on the chin as a result but he is getting a lot of "work" out of his opponent as well. But gradually once he gets Nadal leaning to his left to the forehand side, he starts to work the ball over to the backhand and then either back to the forehand or some combination of shots back on the backhand. Sooner or later he is able to pin the Spaniard down over on the backhand with a combination of angles, depth, spin and speed and as Nadal begins to tire a bit, now Nole has choices...he can choose which side he wishes to exploit. It is amazing how that later in the matches how much he actually exploits the Nadalian forehand. He is rather cunning...our boy Djokovic is.

Well the rain saved Raphael Nadal on Sunday. Djokovic had started slowly but he was employing some sound tactics at the same time. As in heavyweight boxing the object of the game of tennis it to be around when the final blow has been struck...match point that is. Djokovic was on track, I believe, to doing just that. He had Nadal on the ropes and he was tracking him with angles and deep balls on the backhand, just hanging around to apply the coup de grace, the knockout blow. Match point. Tactically he has taken modern tennis to a new level of efficiency. His ability to maneuver and manipulate his opponents makes him nearly unbeatable. Talk about his technique all you like...when it comes down to it...it's the tactics that make the final impression upon your opponent. That being said he has the soundness in his technique to carry out his objectives and the combination of the two T's make him virtually unbeatable. Tactics and technique...not necessarily in that order. Only Nadal can challenge him when he has his best stuff. Roger Federer is toast against him in a five set match.

I think that the final saved the tournament though. Up until that point it was as if you had to invent something interesting to think about to hold your interest. I kept thinking about what are they eating over there in Gay Paris. I kept looking at the girls, I mean the women. But just as in heavyweight boxing...here you had the two marquis names in the game (excluding an aging Roger Federer) and they really delivered. It would of been a different ending if the rain had not interrupted things on Sunday but that is afterall only my opinion. But even the fact that the rain did fall on their parade made it a bit more interesting to boot. Coming out today presented a whole different matrix of problems and possibilities after the rain delay. The end result was predictable. Nadal got his legs back under him and he was able to finish his business. He virtually knocked out the Wily Serb with a combination of blows...usually concluded with a forehand. Simple as that. And I didn't even see it today. Am I right? Of course I am.

[jbill]

Tactical discussion

Merci beaucoup, don_budge for the tactical discussion.

I very much enjoyed reading your thoughts. I especially find to be true what you say about Federer and his tactics or lack there of against Nadal. Especially his approach game is lame. His lack of imagination is very apparent; it is rather strange that he can't figure out that he has to hit a different kind of ball when he approaches the net against Nadal. As you point out, Fed is a champion against right handers, but not left handers like Nadal. In that regard his career performances against Nadal, especially on clay have been disappointing. One is left wondering about his tactical acumen as you have mentioned before and this certainly takes away from his champion quality characteristics.

As of late I am especially disappointed in Fed that he seems to have given up any hope of solving the Nadalian left-handed riddle. His career seems to be waning. I'm not seeing the enthusiasm he had earlier in his tennis career, but I guess he has achieved a tremendous amount so what kind of motivation would he have left anyway?

It will be interesting to see what Fed does in Wimbledon in another week or so this year. I'm sure he feels that the grass surface is his best shot for another slam title.

Also, appreciated Stotty's comments on the other thread about the Nadal - Djokovic French Open semi-final 2013.

Thank you gentlemen------------jbill

[don_budge]

Just one more thing...licensedcoach aka Stotty!

Dare I say I was just slightly disappointed with Nadal. He wasn’t ripping forehands with the same velocity he has been over the last two months. He had a great, assertive first set but then started to revert slowly back to type. By the middle of the third set he was right back to type. Returning serves standing way behind the baseline, looping returns up high and deep, just like the Roland Garros final all over again....but on a hard court.

Once Djokovic started to impose himself with aggression it seemed one-way traffic for a while. There’s nothing quite like Djokovic when his back is to the wall and he suddenly rips five or six games out of nowhere. I think it’s the best sight in modern tennis when he does that.

Djokovic’s lapse during the latter stages of the third set seemed inexplicable. He was motoring, completely in charge. He then lapsed, lost focus. Nadal did nothing different other than maintain his relentlessness. But Djokovic has lapsed like this before in other matches...in matches he’s both won and lost. Against Nadal these days he cannot afford to lapse.

Actually we’ve seen the whole match before, with it’s the ebb and flow and shifts in momentum. I found it a bit deja vu.

Djokovic should have gone 3-0 in the third but Nadal hung on to win that game and stay in with a chance of winning the set. Just like at Roland Garros, Nadal managed to hang in and stem Djokovic’s onslaught just in time and against the odds. He stemmed Djokovic at the start of the fifth in the French Open in the same way. Had Djokovic pulled further away from Nadal at the start of the fifth in Paris, it would have been curtains for Nadal.

There were two things that really stood out for me in the US final: The 54 stroke rally that left Djokovic emotionally and physically spent, so much so he lost the next game to love, while Nadal, remarkably, hardly seemed to pant. And Nadal’s comeback from 0-40 at 4-4 in the third. I found both incidents monumental. The latter sums up the difference between the two players. Nadal is so resilient, so tough, so unbelievably good. Not that Djokovic isn’t, but not quite to the same degree. The difference is minimal, but it’s there.

All good...my good man. You bring up some really good points in your tactical analysis. I wonder if you might has left out just one small detail. Tactics is a nebulous discussion...I suppose that is one reason why I just love to engage in discussions of this nature. Afterall...the whole thing is spinning isn't it? The universe...I mean. It's not just about tennis matches...at the end of the night. We are all spinning. The earth is a ball...a ball in the game. The object of the game is to learn the rules. Hmmm....Obama is spinning. Reeling...under the relentless game. The grand chess board. Putin plays deadly serious...calling the POTUS's bluff and the Secretary of State's gaffe. Check.

It's funny that you would be disappointed that Nadal would use a different tactical approach to Djokovic as opposed to the rest of the field. But you see...he subscribes to the Tilden axiom...never change a winning game. The looping is a defensive tactic to neutralize Djokovic. The relentless attack against Djokovic is not as effective as Djokovic has a tremendous ability to absorb punishment on the one hand but he can also use it to turn the heat back on you. He's a real player...not a pretender.

I was very impressed with the play of Djokovic later on in the tournament. He seemed to be having a difficult time "getting his teeth into the tournament". He had the same issue with Wawrinka in the semifinals...losing a rather lackluster first set. But in both matches he showed some rather steely resolve to turn the wheel of fortune. Even if it was only temporary against Nadal.

But there are two things that stand out for me too. Number one is that 54 stroke rally that you cite. Remember when I said something to the effect that sometimes when you lose you win. Well here is a excellent case in point. Up to that point in the match both contestants really had their teeth into it. Both were trading shots and points and situations worthy of the best heavyweight boxing contests. And it came at a pivotal moment. Novak was sliding along the Razor's Edge like a snail when trying to match Nadal's strength with his strength. That point was the breaking point. Even though Nadal lost that point he felt none of the effects. He lost his serve...but he had defeated his opponent. Djokovic was there for the taking at that point. The look on his face was one of astonishment and disbelief and I think that I know how he feels...what an ordeal that point must have been. Life can be like that, too...you know. Physically Djokovic was finished as Nadal had taken his legs out from under him...he was done emotionally as well. Looking over to the other side of the net he had to notice that Nadal was unaffected. That is intimidation.

So what about the "one more thing" don_budge...I ask myself...as if I am talking to myself. Well...the Nadal camp had one more ace up their sleeve. Everyone marveled at the "new" beefed up forehand and the "new" suped up serve. But guess what caught my eye...it was subtlety lo and behold. Something a bit less obvious than the two big guns. It was a "new" improved slice backhand that was strategically implemented to offset the Djokovic reverse crosscourt forehand and also took away the short cross angle to the Nadal backhand. A couple of delicate down the line dropshots that Djokovic barely was able to get to. Talk about sliding along the Razor's Edge like a snail...slicing. It can sting a bit.

Nadal has found a way to keep Djokovic in an area of the court where he is more or less pinned down with fewer options other than to be patient and try to match Nadal tit for tat. Either he runs around the backhand to play the slice which is energy consuming and may account for the wobbly legs and weakened mental resolve...or he plays patient. Well he didn't have the energy after that 54 stroke rally to be patient...while Nadal was "remarkably" unfazed. Which brings me to another interesting observation about Nadal.

[stotty]

Take 7 months out...

My disappointment in Nadal wasn’t one of tactics. By midway through the third set the match was identical to their Roland Garros final, but on a hard court. And, yes, why wouldn’t Nadal resort back to the tactics that won that match. My disappointment was more to do with him not hammering those forehands when the right opportunities arose. The unmistakeable opportunities when it was the right thing to do, and the ball was sitting there for him to do it. He still hit them well, but not so well he has been doing recently. It was fussy of me to expect this, I know, and the stakes were so high...it’s the US and not Cincinnati after all.

As I reflect on the match in my mind, I find your observation on Nadal’s backhand to be true. I think it went through my mind subconsciously but didn’t spot it in my conscious mind. It got by me. Formally in that situation Djokovic was nearly always the winner of the point. Not anymore. If anything Nadal maybe slight favourite to win such points now.

Becker is right in his observation that Djokovic’s backhand isn’t as good as it was. He misses more and he doesn’t clean the lines with it as he did in 2011. If I was Djokovic, I’d work to get that shot back. I’d also work on an even better wide serve. I’d work, too, on a better sliced backhand. I’d work on freeing myself up mentally so I could unleash my whole game from the get-go. I’d take seven months off to do all this as well. Now that’s right out of Bill Tilden’s book! I wonder if Uncle Toni has read Tilden’t book?

[GeoffWilliams]

He needs the psych/nutritionist: Igor C. back on board. He was taking daily treatments from the scio machine, and acupuncture, hypnosis. Alll of that rose his energy level up and as soon as the doc left, his level dropped, and he began to lose again.

[stevenmila]

?? is there a youtube video

is there a youtube video outlining Rafa's new supposed new improved technique -could not find it - would be very interested in a link - certainly the addition of hitting more slice backhands, which I think he is hitting with considerably more spin - but especially the use of the slice when returning djokovic's down the line backhands - was most effective, it gave him precious moments of time to readjust: Less of the running around backhands also keeps him in a more balanced court position, and stops wasting so much precious energy of foot steps and extra readjusting. At the end of the day all that spin on the forehand, just wins hands down - his forehand is just so much more potent than the competition...

[don_budge]

No new Rafafafafafa...just some old Nole

is there a youtube video outlining Rafa's new supposed new improved technique

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrC5gzQ8tyw

Recognize anything to this very day? A bit inconsistent with the smash. Much improved though.