Bill Tilden's Pathetic Sex Life...

[GeoffWilliams]

Now there's a word I've never heard before. Good/evil/dark/light, no gray? Lots of people here acting as if Tilden did nothing wrong, just ignoring it as if he didn't do anything at all other than win matches, write a book. Maybe we should just take what positive we can from him. And Sandusky. And Fischer. And whoever is a child molester. And maybe we shouldn't. To each his own. That's the philosophy of the molesters as well. They believe that what they do is ok. Worth ignoring. It's bigger than tennis or any game. Evil has many faces, some of them are painted like clowns, and hand out candy, and bury things in the back yard basement.

No one in football will be talking about Sanduskys coaching methods, ever. Child sodomy is a brown brush to be painted with. For those parents still taking their kids to Fischer, some people took their kids to sleep overs at Michael Jackson's house well after he was outed. It's all about perfection and money.

"If Fischer could teach Sampras to serve like a god, maybe he can teach my boy to do the same thing.", is what they are thinking. Forget about sampras being a genetic freak, able to twist against his own core like no one in the world has ever been able to do before or since. Looking relaxed, yet turning with his back to the net, yet the chong stance still facing the net, going into a deep knee bend, yet driving off only the front foot, arching his back like a curving banana, yet uncurving forwards in the reverse arched bend, and pronating his frame from 30mph to 90mph in 2/1000th of a second, the hitting bed now facing the side fence! HIs elbow left up in the air, and his knees bending now upwards. I don't think Fischer taught him all that. Just magic at work.

[bottle]

You've got it, GeoffWilliams. The new word-- Manichaean-- should be useful for you.

Here's a link to lots more "stuff." The quote marks are on purpose. Because "stuff" is matter of more than usual interest. And Tilden's life and ideas and his sense of humor, unlike the case of the exclusively banal sociological worm Jerry Sandusky, hold interest.

http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_47/penningaplayabout.html

Too much Manichaean judgment, if I may lecture, keeps people from "stuff," i.e., the chthonic or earthy or nitty-gritty, which is what you present in your descriptions of the Sampras serve and stringing and any subject you're really into.

More superficial players are merely apt to say, "Oh, Pete Sampras-- the greatest serve of all time!"

People can say that and thousands have without understanding the first thing about the Sampras serve.

Too much judgment too soon whether awe or condemnation is the villain.

What about Tilden's question to the judge in the Gurney article about whether the pickup had been a girl? Worth thinking about, no? But the judge just nailed him as a pederast.

What about Tilden's refusal to plead innocent? Pretty interesting, I'd say, and the opposite of Sandusky.

One thing about these discussions: Through the challenging here, as in tennis itself, I've learned a lot about Bill Tilden I didn't know, including jbill's quoting of him today on the subject of ego, a great thought, I'd say.

Herman Melville, Walt Whitman, Tennessee Williams (sorry about that last name), Serena Williams (last name again!), Oscar Wilde, Bill Tilden-- all great players.

[don_budge]

Boys and Girls, Boys or Girls...and the Age of Consent. Crime and Punishment.

Now there's a word I've never heard before. Good/evil/dark/light, no gray? Lots of people here acting as if Tilden did nothing wrong, just ignoring it as if he didn't do anything at all other than win matches, write a book. Maybe we should just take what positive we can from him. And Sandusky. And Fischer. And whoever is a child molester. And maybe we shouldn't. To each his own. That's the philosophy of the molesters as well. They believe that what they do is ok. Worth ignoring. It's bigger than tennis or any game. Evil has many faces, some of them are painted like clowns, and hand out candy, and bury things in the back yard basement.

No one in football will be talking about Sanduskys coaching methods, ever. Child sodomy is a brown brush to be painted with. For those parents still taking their kids to Fischer, some people took their kids to sleep overs at Michael Jackson's house well after he was outed. It's all about perfection and money.

"If Fischer could teach Sampras to serve like a god, maybe he can teach my boy to do the same thing.", is what they are thinking. Forget about sampras being a genetic freak, able to twist against his own core like no one in the world has ever been able to do before or since. Looking relaxed, yet turning with his back to the net, yet the chong stance still facing the net, going into a deep knee bend, yet driving off only the front foot, arching his back like a curving banana, yet uncurving forwards in the reverse arched bend, and pronating his frame from 30mph to 90mph in 2/1000th of a second, the hitting bed now facing the side fence! HIs elbow left up in the air, and his knees bending now upwards. I don't think Fischer taught him all that. Just magic at work.

At first I was a little taken back. A couple of years ago I made some comments about Tilden...I was "innocently" trying to contribute to a tennis discussion here on the forum. Much as I have been for a couple of years now. Much as I am trying to do to this very day. What I encountered was an onslaught of venom that I truly did not understand. Understand that I was new to the forum too. Who was this person and why were they attacking me? It seemed to me that someone was trying to run me off the forum. I no longer feel that offended feeling...it now is amusing. Sympathizer...of child molesters or racism or nazis. Always a good way to divert a reasonable discussion. Accusations...often are hollow and without substance.

http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_47/penningaplayabout.html

He asked...what if it had been a girl?

You see the whole thing is a bit nebulous. I am not so quick to condemn. In this article it says that his appetite was for young men and adolescent boys. Well...I find that peculiar for me but perhaps a homosexual male would not. That I wouldn't know...having never had a homosexual thought in my life. Well save for falling in love with myself...get it?

That is why I asked the "Grand Inquisitor", invoking Dostoyevsky once again, about some specifics...such as the ages of the "victims". I figure that the way to go about trying to understand an incident such as this that happened some sixty plus years ago is to get legalese. Give me the facts and try to keep the condemning emotions to a minimum. Geez...at least get the facts before sending someone to the gallows.

There are a couple of legal points here...one is the age of the "boys" vs. the age of consent. What if they had been girls? What was the age of consent at the time? For instance the age of consent in Sweden is younger than it is in the USA. The same act in either country may be either legal or illegal given the particulars. Comparing Tilden to either Michael Jackson or Jerry Sandusky is sensationalism...and reflective of a clouded and rush to judgement. What are the facts? I am always a little suspicious of those who fancy themselves to be judge, jury and executioner.

Am I now a Michael Jackson or Jerry Sandusky sympathizer by way of some convoluted rationale? Or maybe wanting to know the facts is being a tad to compassionate...for the fervent mind. I can't wait to hear it...GUILTY...GUILTY...GUILTY. Of what...I ask?

[lobndropshot]

What about Tilden's question to the judge in the Gurney article about whether the pickup had been a girl? Worth thinking about, no? But the judge just nailed him as a pederast.

Very good point!

[stotty]

Very good point!

I can understand Tilden's reaction/question to the judge here. Somehow fondling under an age girl clearly seemed less (or somehow more acceptable) of a crime to Tilden. But the judge had the right answer...no doubt about that.