Tilden's book

[klacr]

nfortunately their logic is too clear in many cases...

Good point

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[bottle]

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/23/sports/tennis-paroled-ex-coach-is-upbeat.html

I wonder if there was DNA evidence. Because the world, especially law enforcement, is full of homophobes, despite the obvious social improvement that has recently occurred in American society.

Homophobia definitely figures in the Frank Deford biography of Tilden-- specifically, California homophobes. California gir-r-r-rls. No, California homophobes.

DNA evidence has reversed about 150 murder convictions, no?

So I'd be a bit leery of anything that someone says that Tilden did.

Unless they were personally molested by him when they were a kid along with all the priests who also provided their personal molestation. Name them all and I'll put the subject under personal advisement.

I forgot to ask Katharine Hepburn, while she was still alive, whether she was molested by her old tennis teacher. She sure did hit the ball well. That's what I remember. And I loved (in fact still love) our win over her brother and my brother which I'm happy to attribute to Mr. Tilden's teaching.

[GeoffWilliams]

It's interesting because Tilden got off a lot lighter than Pete Fischer--but parents still take their kids to Fischer for serving lessons...

Now that is saying something. SAmpras never said he got molested by PF, but did give him credit for helping with his serve. The driven fact is, parents still taking their kids to him although his proclivity for young boys is widely known, what does that say about our win at the costs of our children mentality so many twisted tennis parents display? It's outright strange.

[bottle]

Maybe the parents (and the kid) knew that the kid could take care of himself, could whack Mr. Fischer between the legs if need be, and might end up a slightly less naive and more sophisticated person at the end of the first lesson.

Might be worth submitting to Fischer's presence to get a great serve. One might even have a good time.

I've worked and traveled and stayed alone overnight with gay people many times and never had any trouble at all. A guy in Eastport, Maine asked me once if I wanted to do something. I said, "No." That was it. If I'd been intolerant I wouldn't have had any career in theater, which is experience that I value. And I don't think I could have been an American literature major, knowing what I do about so many authors, playwrights and poets.

It's so stupid to exclude vast categories of people from your life because of irrational fear. And I'd love to spend time laughing with Serena Williams. Would you?

Think Muslims, Jews, Ivy Leaguers, etc.

There's no good reason for tennis players to be clear bigots.

You may take my comments as "light" but the sentiment behind them is not.

As I said before, nobody knows what Tilden did or didn't do, and that is the nature of ancient history and even modern journalism, and I respect Frank Deford on this specific question about Tilden more than anybody else.

[johnyandell]

Getting back to tennis the question is whether Pete Fischer really taught Pete that motion...

[don_budge]

Sexual overtones...

Any comments of a sexual nature please direct to the "Bill Tilden's Pathetic Sex Life..." thread. Thank you for your consideration.

[don_budge]

Children and the ability to concentrate...Think Bell Curve

Thanks once again jbill...for keeping it real. Tilden's book..."How to Play Better Tennis...a complete guide to technique and tactics" is a great place to start for any tennis teacher or tennis coach to begin to establish a philosophy about the game. It is also a great place to start for any beginner tennis player.

There is something for everyone in it. Older experienced coaches like our boy Stotty find that there is much sage wisdom and profound thought in the pages of this worthwhile read. As Stotty stated...these are some deep thoughts about the game. It is a mysterious game...and it is sort of ironic that a character such as Bill Tilden would be the wizard to unlock much of the mystery to the general public. I have reread it many times. It is sort of like "Madman Across the Water"...I never get tired of it.

Certainly, concentration skills are so necessary in ordinary life and something that children must acquire if they are to mature and be successful in life in general.

I was curious, don_budge, where you came up with the idea that most children cannot concentrate in the game of tennis until they are twelve years old. I discovered on a particular website dealing with ways to help children increase their concentration and focusing abilities, that they actually recommended that elementary school children become involved in learning to play the game of tennis. Do you mean that most children under the age of twelve don’t have attention spans that are long enough to do well in tennis? Do you mean they don’t have the concentration skills for match play? What do you mean specifically?

jbill

That is an understatement jbill...the necessity of being able to concentrate. Tennis certainly taught me how to concentrate. The power of concentration. Maybe the number one factor that enables an individual to pick up on a new endeavor. I encourage children to participate in tennis for that reason alone. If you can teach someone how to concentrate that just may be an ability that will stick with them their whole life.

I came up with the age of twelve based on my experience with the younger ones that I have worked with the past few years. People generally can be dispersed in terms of ability in the shape of a Bell Curve and it is my experience that the more significant numbers start around that age. I have learned a lot the past several years about human development and such by working with young people here in Sweden. I also translate Swedish research papers for a Swedish Phd midwife.

Teaching tennis is a numbers game. As I have said before if you put enough monkeys in a large enough room with enough typewriters...sooner or later one of them is going to type out the King James version of the Bible. I was lucky enough back around 1980 to be involved in a junior tennis program that had a number of really talented players and one of them was “my little buddy” Aaron Krickstein. At the age of ten he was sort of like Mozart...a child prodigy. He was on one end of the Bell Curve...the far end to the right.

But generally speaking...I enjoy working with young people that are a bit older because they are more physically developed and they are more advanced mentally too. The work is less labor intensive and you don’t have to repeat yourself half a million times on every single aspect of the game. There is a consensus these days that in order to produce really talented tennis player you must get them out of the cradle and put them to work. I feel that this is a mistake, it may have a detrimental effect on junior tennis and it is certainly unnecessary in most cases.

First of all...if you start kids off too young they are not able to comprehend what the game is really about. It is a most sophisticated game and it isn’t as if you are going out to play soccer where basically the only prerequisite is to kick the ball around initially. As Tilden notes in his foundations of the tennis game, the ability to concentrate is one of the top priorities...so we ask ourselves when does this occur in the average human being. Secondly...if kids are started off at an age before they have the ability to make basic decisions on their own they will be taught standardized tennis. Strong grip forehand, two-handed backhand with the mediocre standard issue serve. It sort of unnerves me to try and teach kids to play tennis if they cannot tie their shoes. Not that I don’t get a kick out of teaching them how to tie their shoes. Afterall that takes some concentration...doesn’t it?

Tennis is above all a game that involves making decisions. Lots of decisions and that is why it is so difficult to teach the all court game which is why nobody even bothers these days. The kids are too young and the endeavor is too complicated. But if they are a bit older...it is doable. I never touched a tennis racquet until I was 13 years old and even then we didn’t have indoor facilities until a few years later. As it was...back then there were times when training wasn’t a first priority...maybe it was sitting around with the new Elton John album or the new Moody Blues album trying to deciphers the lyrics in a euphoric state. Know what I mean? Or maybe out dodging the draft trying to avoid getting your ass blown to pieces in a Vietnamese rice paddy. We had other things to do. So as it was...I turned the ten year equation into a 13 or 14 year equation. But the point is I didn’t have to play tennis before I was out of my diapers.

It’s a numbers game jbill...in more ways than one. I agree though that learning tennis at a young age is a good way to begin to instill that tendency to concentrate...but even then that might be a bit of a stretch depending upon the age. It is interesting to note that when Tilden is referring to youngsters he is referring to kids that are quite a bit older than we take for granted in modern times.

[jbill]

Children and concentration

Thank you don_budge for explaining your point of view about children’s ability to concentrate with respect to the sophisticated game of tennis. I can’t say that I disagree with anything you have mentioned to support your position. I will say that I believe some children enjoy tennis at a young age for the mere physicality and athleticism involved regardless of any ability to concentrate. I do get it, though, that some kids for lack of concentration ability are not easy to teach since they become easily distracted. I wouldn’t argue with that. And yes, it probably is a numbers game with regard to the few who are at the far right on the bell curve that you mention who are the child prodigies. (I think Stan Smith was a good example of someone who was not a child prodigy and was still very successful. He took up tennis at a rather late age. I’m not sure ---- twelve, thirteen, fourteen?)

I think that whole business of teaching the little ones often gets very complicated due to parents’ misguided attitudes. There seems to be a push now days for children to accomplish many skill oriented things at earlier and earlier ages. It’s as if parents think that learning is always going to take place in a linear fashion when in reality it’s often anything but linear. Who knows when “the light bulb will go on” in a kid’s head? In my opinion, kids don’t learn until they are just plain ready to learn. I know it was that way with my children. Even though we read to them consistently early on, my daughter didn’t take off as a true reader until third grade and my son was even later. Why? Who knows? Genetics, environment, emotions, lack of ability to concentrate? I thought it was rather ironic in my daughter’s case since she finally took off as a reader when they stopped trying to teach her.

I have to laugh a little when you say you don’t particularly enjoy teaching tennis to kids just out of diapers. I felt the same way with respect to teaching English as a Second Language to beginners, especially children. As you suggest------way too labor intensive and consequently very tiring. I much preferred teaching intermediate to advanced students, much more engaging for me. I preferred teenagers and adults because it afforded me the opportunity to get to know them and interact with them. Sometimes this was very meaningful work for me because I realized I was an important bridge for them in their survival and success in a different culture.

I appreciate what you say about tennis being a game of decision making and that is why it is so difficult to teach the all-court game. As a result, you say not many bother to teach the all court game. That very well could be the case in today’s current scene. I can certainly testify to the fact that it is hard to learn the all court game. I am particularly drawn to that style of play just because it does require a lot of decision making. That is one of the basic reasons why I play tennis. I like and want to think on the court. I want it to be like a chess game.

A quick comment about practice included in Tilden’s Foundation of Tennis Part One. I personally love the repetition involved in practice, whether with a coach, a hitting partner or ball machine.

I love to set up my ball machine to work on various strokes, new and old, to perfect them, to groove them. For me this repetition is like a meditation where a natural, focused concentration takes place. Time with regard to future or past disappears. When my shots aren’t coming out right, my focus gets more intense; I enjoy the challenge of figuring out the problem and making the proper adjustment. The ball machine is such a useful tool with regard to practice and advancement in the game!

jbill

[don_budge]

Tennis is a Ritualistic Sport...a search for that higher level

A quick comment about practice included in Tilden’s Foundation of Tennis Part One. I personally love the repetition involved in practice, whether with a coach, a hitting partner or ball machine.

I love to set up my ball machine to work on various strokes, new and old, to perfect them, to groove them. For me this repetition is like a meditation where a natural, focused concentration takes place. Time with regard to future or past disappears. When my shots aren’t coming out right, my focus gets more intense; I enjoy the challenge of figuring out the problem and making the proper adjustment. The ball machine is such a useful tool with regard to practice and advancement in the game!

jbill

This is pretty much a brilliant summation of the proper approach to playing tennis and what one is seeking when they practice with purpose. This feeling of the repetitiveness is sort of a religious experience. Over and over we repeat...like a mantra. It's a prayer...sort of. The "meditative" feeling is the state where time loses meaning and we simply are...what we were meant to be. Without television, without computers, without cell phones, without automobiles. Without Mom or Dad telling us what to do. Just being is good enough...and too much to hope for at the same time. Less can be better and this state that you talk about is sort of reducing life to its LCD or Lowest Common Denominator. Try to live like that...be happier. Like the furry critters in the woods.

Devoting time to that backhand is like a prayer. Trying to improve that weak link in your game...is like an oath. A sacred oath. Between you and the higher power. I will become a better person...nobody will outwork me in this regard. I swear it. I swear to You. It morphs into something supernatural...before you know it you are hooked. Caught up in the moment. Fervent!

With all of the time that I have spent on the tennis court in my life...whenever I step onto the court I simple become only that. Just that. The tennis court becomes a separate reality...another dimension. It's a sacred place. My awareness automatically becomes heightened and my eye sharpens to everything within my vision and including my peripheral vision. Plus there are the eyes in the back of my head. Then after the sessions are over there is no better feeling than to be able to admit to myself...I did my best. I left it all on the court. There is nothing left in the bag. Time to take a shower...go home. Relax. Once again tennis assumes a metaphor applied to life.

I saw an old man die once. He went just like that...doing his best. He never had to think about it. That is just the way that it was. He smiled a lot. He had a firm handshake. All of his life he did his best and he did it simply. Without fanfare. Without the bells and whistles. He did everything he did to the best of his ability. He lived, he sported, he loved, he became old and then he died. Calmly. Sweetly. His last breath was merely a sigh. I will never forget him. My wife's father. Åke Lörne. I moved to Sweden largely on account of him. He made such an impression on me. The way that he lived. He was in the LCD all of the time. He was in his late nineties. Sigh...Thank you Lord.

*Chapter 3...Condition, Physical and Mental; Equipment, later today!

[jbill]

don_budge, I can relate to what you are saying about your father-in-law, but in a somewhat different fashion.

I watched my first wife die 25 years ago. It was something of a spiritual experience for me. Mary was in a coma. She waited for all those who mattered to her to appear at her bedside. As her loved ones told her they loved her, she finally shed three tears, took one last breath and then took off. It was as if I felt her spiritual essence go up and out of the room. Everyone left the room and then left me alone with her. I didn't stay long because I knew she wasn't there anymore. It was rather windy that Friday morning. I felt as if her departure from this plane, her energy and spirit, had made the air swirl.

Since we have been talking about the fact that the game of tennis represents many metaphors in and for life, I thought I would share something with you that popped out of my head one Sunday morning when I woke up.


A Conversation

By J. W. Bill



Tennis is like a conversation.
Tennis is like a conversation that you want to learn to dictate.
For Ray, tennis is a battle of egos.
For me, tennis is a conversation that I want to dictate.

Tennis is like a conversation.
There really are no winners, only participants.
You don’t win a conversation, do you?
You may win an argument, but you don’t win a conversation.

A conversation takes place among people that want to get along.
Generally, these participants aren’t trying to win anything.
They are trying to understand each other.
That means they are cooperating for a common purpose.

When you look at tennis like this
You feel differently about it.
Often, it is seen as a very competitive affair,
Where individual egos battle it out to determine a winner.

Some people view tennis as an argument
That needs to be won.
Their egos are at stake.
Their egos need gratification, a pat on the back.

When the ego loses, it feels terrible, depressed.
Sometimes it wants to quit;
It doesn’t want to play anymore.
It feels like it has lost the argument, been shut down, worthless.

It takes time for the ego to recover,
To want to play again.
How sad!
I think I would rather view tennis as a conversation.

[jbill]

A piece of poetry

So what would Tilden say about the foregoing piece of poetry, don_budge? Is this a metaphor for tennis that he would identify with or is it off the mark?

jbill

[don_budge]

Spin Doctors...the world is a ball, a ball in the game.

So what would Tilden say about the foregoing piece of poetry, don_budge? Is this a metaphor for tennis that he would identify with or is it off the mark?

jbill

Well I wouldn't dare speak for Tilden...especially on this forum, if you know what I mean. But I think it is a thoughtful bit of writing and one that I have thought along the very same lines in the past. It is provocative thought. One thought leads to another. Thanks for sharing by the way. I appreciate your spin on things.

With regards to the conversational aspect...I have said on various occasions that "you spin, I spin, we all spin together". I sort of fancy myself some sort of Spin Doctor among other things having at one time or another mastered both tennis and golf. You see how we all spin off one another. Watch the news nowadays and get a load of that spin. See GeoffWilliams and how he is spinning the review that we are discussing about Tilden's tennis thoughts. He has anyone who contemplates Tilden's tennis writing as unspeakable sympathizers of child molesters. That is some spin...and I am not going to touch it. Whoops...I guess I just did.

Your musing about the egotistical aspect of tennis is also on the money. I quit tennis when I turned forty and took my first golf lesson on my fortieth birthday for that very reason. I wanted to divorce myself from the ego that I had built for myself as "the tennis player" in the community that I lived in. That was an interesting experiment that lasted 13 years. It was really nice to come back to the game also...the game somehow came back to me.

But these are deep thoughts...aren't they jbill? Even so...it doesn't hurt to share a bit. Why not? Everyone can prosper from a little food for thought. It may even be good for the soul. There is more to tennis than meets the eye.

[jbill]

The ego and tennis

First of all, let me say that your comments are also duly appreciated.

Second, from my point of view don_budge, with regard to the deeper thoughts, I go along with Socrates when he says.”the unexamined life is not worth living.” Frankly, I find life is a heck of a lot more interesting that way.

Third, with respect to my little piece of poetry, I found something in Tilden’s book that refers to the central gist of it all. From Chapter 12, Courage: “You should be on your guard at all times against the insidious inroads of your ego. Once more, you must call on the vision of the distant goal to keep your balance.”

The distant goal that he refers to is that of being a champion or getting to higher and higher levels of playing.

When you read this chapter you find out that basically he is talking about making tennis a process oriented thing instead of an outcome oriented thing. A player needs to be more concerned about improving than winning. The winning will come by itself if you can keep your focus to improvement rather than outcome and results . This is why he mentions the ego. One has to figure out a way to keep the ego at bay since the ego will always be more interested in outcomes.

I would agree with you once again, don_budge, what Bill Tilden has to say about the game of tennis is well worth noting and timeless.

jbill