Monte Carlo Final 2013

[stotty]

Djokovic was impressive in his victory over Nadal in the final. Shades of 2011. The clay court season is going to be interesting. I am going to pray for a Djokovic v Nadal final at Roland Garros. I am convinced Djokovic can crush Nadal if he gets it absolutely right. He hits the cleanest ball...remarkable timing.

Djokovic versus Nadal on clay in 2011 was the highest standard tennis I have ever seen...excepting Rosol on a purple day. They could hit the same dizzy heights in 2013...very likely...hopefully.

What can Nadal do to combat Djokovic when he becomes rampant?

[gsheiner]

If I'm in Nadal's camp I'm very. very concerned.

I could see no patterns that Nadal had the advantage in. Djoko is hitting his backhand superbly and completely neutralizing the Nadal forehand. His forehand dominates the Nadal backhand, he serves and returns better.

Having said all that, Nadal was serving up a break twice in the second set.

[lobndropshot]

Movement:
tie (Nadal is a better clay court mover. However, I think that Novak has better court positioning.)
Forehand:
Nadal (hard to compare)
Backhand:
Novak
Serve:
Novak
Return:
Novak
Intangibles:
no idea
Volleys:
What are those?
Fitness:
Novak

[don_budge]

Vary the Service and apply The Slice Backhand...

What can Nadal do to combat Djokovic when he becomes rampant?

I think it is important to try to become a player that can play their game and adapt to the challenges presented. I want to be the puzzle solver not the puzzle.

It's rather simple actually. Two things...

Nadal needs to develop an answer to the Djokovic exploitation of his backhand side. The answer to this may be to become a little less predictable. If Nadal had a McEnroeesque slice he would be able to slice deep and short down the line to the Djokovic backhand and slice short and low cross court to the Djokovic forehand. I have seen right hander's use this tactic and cause Djokovic to stumble at times but nobody seems to be solid enough to pull it off. With Nadal being left handed he could borrow a page out of the left handed John McEnroe book on tennis tactics as it applies to playing players with big forehands and rock solid two handed backhands. This was the key to the American Lefties dismantling of the Swedish Bear.

I think it might be effective also if Nadal could take off some of the overspin on his backhand and hit a bit flatter down the line. This shot has been a key to Djokovic's neutralizing the big spin game of Nadal. By Djokovic hitting with less spin off of his backhand he is also able to hurt the Spaniard just a bit more, perhaps only incrementally, on the lefty forehand and draw him out of position just enough so that he does get quite set up to deliver his haymaker. If Nadal is just a bit off balance his natural reaction more often than not is to add more spin to the shot...which makes the ball land shorter. Which gives Djokovic a better chance to position himself to enable himself to maintain the pressure on Nadal with a flatter ball to the backhand.

In addition to slicing to the Djokovic backhand with variety of depth...Nadal could also employ the same tactic over on the Djokovic forehand. If he can slice effectively to the Djokovic backhand for instance...he could also employ a wicked short and wide slice to the Djokovic forehand which would help to neutralize that side of the court. If he could effectively vary his two handed backhand with the slice he would have a whole new paradigm of tactics to work with.

The other thing that I would contemplate if I was Uncle Tony is hiring someone to teach Nadal how to serve. I am not necessarily referring to change of technique and delivery even...but a change or an expansion of strategy and tactics. He doesn't seem to be able to pull Djokovic off of the court enough or often enough. Especially on the second serve...he is much too predictable.

Nadal has become a bit too predictable overall. As lobndropshot points out the positioning of Djokovic is a key to his success against Nadal and much of this is attributed to his anticipation as well as his mobility.

[stotty]

It's rather simple actually. Two things...

Nadal needs to develop an answer to the Djokovic exploitation of his backhand side. The answer to this may be to become a little less predictable. If Nadal had a McEnroeesque slice he would be able to slice deep and short down the line to the Djokovic backhand and slice short and low cross court to the Djokovic forehand. I have seen right hander's use this tactic and cause Djokovic to stumble at times but nobody seems to be solid enough to pull it off. With Nadal being left handed he could borrow a page out of the left handed John McEnroe book on tennis tactics as it applies to playing players with big forehands and rock solid two handed backhands. This was the key to the American Lefties dismantling of the Swedish Bear.

I think it might be effective also if Nadal could take off some of the overspin on his backhand and hit a bit flatter down the line. This shot has been a key to Djokovic's neutralizing the big spin game of Nadal. By Djokovic hitting with less spin off of his backhand he is also able to hurt the Spaniard just a bit more, perhaps only incrementally, on the lefty forehand and draw him out of position just enough so that he does get quite set up to deliver his haymaker. If Nadal is just a bit off balance his natural reaction more often than not is to add more spin to the shot...which makes the ball land shorter. Which gives Djokovic a better chance to position himself to enable himself to maintain the pressure on Nadal with a flatter ball to the backhand.

In addition to slicing to the Djokovic backhand with variety of depth...Nadal could also employ the same tactic over on the Djokovic forehand. If he can slice effectively to the Djokovic backhand for instance...he could also employ a wicked short and wide slice to the Djokovic forehand which would help to neutralize that side of the court. If he could effectively vary his two handed backhand with the slice he would have a whole new paradigm of tactics to work with.

The other thing that I would contemplate if I was Uncle Tony is hiring someone to teach Nadal how to serve. I am not necessarily referring to change of technique and delivery even...but a change or an expansion of strategy and tactics. He doesn't seem to be able to pull Djokovic off of the court enough or often enough. Especially on the second serve...he is much too predictable.

Nadal has become a bit too predictable overall. As lobndropshot points out the positioning of Djokovic is a key to his success against Nadal and much of this is attributed to his anticipation as well as his mobility.

I agree about the serve. I have thought that for a long time. It would make a difference. Sadly his sliced backhand is nowhere near that good and stands no chance of implementing what you say.

Nadal as he stands now is the finished product. That's the problem. Anything he adds to his game is unlikely to be to a level that would a difference. It's too late. Djokovic fathomed the Nadal puzzle in 2011 and has never looked back. His loses to Nadal in 2012 on clay I largely ignore because of his personal circumstances that existed at the time...and he had Nadal by the throat at Roland Garros before the rain got in the way.

Normal service is now resumed...let's see what happens.

[stroke]

To me, Djokovic is the first player that has not only been able to neutralize Nadal's favorite shot, his cross court hook forehand, but consistently step into it and drive it down the line, hurting Nadal. I would like to see Nadal play more balls toward the center of the court and see how Novak does having to kind of create his own angles. I still feel like Nadal is the FO favorite.

[lobndropshot]

Taking Nadal down in a best of five match especially with the love and support of the fickle French Open fans. This why I favor him in FO as well. However, The Joker's game does match up well against The Bull. The main reason is that no part of the Bull's game rushes The Joker. The Joker can sit back and work the point from his well positioned arm chair. That being said I think that some can get under the Joker's skin if they can rush him and hit through the dirt. Where is the Robin (Solderling)?

[klacr]

I watched this match and I can't say I was surprised by the result. Djokovic dictated the patterns and absolutely picked on Nadal's backhand. The deuce court was especially problematic for Nadal as he was just pushed into that corner with Djokovic's variety of flat forehands, sharp angled forehands and the real killer, the backhand down the line.

After the 1set set, a graphic showed Djokovic hit almost 50% of all backhands down the line. Talk about exploiting a weakness. No hiding it. Blatently obvious. Djokovic won 35% of his total points when he attacked the Nadal Backhand.

Nadal's serve was also ineffective against Djokovic. Djokovic won over 50% of all return points against Nadal. Rafa on the other hand only won around 34%. Djokovic steps up and is aggressive on returns, not content with just chipping it back. Putting Nadal on the defense from the beginning of the point plays huge dividends. Easier said than done of course. But I guess thats why we're here and not out on court doing it against Rafa.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Hmm

Great observations from all. For once everyone is in complete agreement: Nadal is in deep trouble...Djokovic has his number and has had for a long time. He doesn't fear Nadal. If he ever doubted his superiority, then what happened at Monte Carlo will have wiped any such insecurities clean away. Roland Garros is going to be interesting if only for that one match-up should it come about. Personally, I think Nadal is stumped if Djokovic plays well.

don_budge is on the money about Nadal's serve. If he could use the lefty swinger out wide to better effect it could make a difference. It would be an even bigger asset at Wimbledon.

Nadal's sliced backhand is a stab. He only plays it if he has too. It's not in the same hemisphere as McEnroe's. Now if shots could be borrowed or loaned out...

[don_budge]

What can we learn from the Professionals?

What can Nadal do to combat Djokovic when he becomes rampant?

I agree about the serve. I have thought that for a long time. It would make a difference. Sadly his sliced backhand is nowhere near that good and stands no chance of implementing what you say.

Nadal as he stands now is the finished product. That's the problem. Anything he adds to his game is unlikely to be to a level that would a difference. It's too late.

Great observations from all. For once everyone is in complete agreement: Nadal is in deep trouble...Djokovic has his number and has had for a long time. He doesn't fear Nadal. If he ever doubted his superiority, then what happened at Monte Carlo will have wiped any such insecurities clean away.

Nadal's sliced backhand is a stab. He only plays it if he has too. It's not in the same hemisphere as McEnroe's. Now if shots could be borrowed or loaned out...

When discussing matters of tennis coaching one should refrain from using the words agree or disagree. You can also chuck phrases such as "in my opinion" and the like right into the mulch pile as well. Each and every tennis coach has had their own influences and their own personal path of development...or it seems they should have. Such is the nature of the game. But like everything else these days there is the push for uniformity and boxed in thinking. Even the modern day concept of "diversity" has uniformity written all over it...ironically enough.

For instance I thought it rather curious that you would post first asking the hypothetical question about what Nadal can do to neutralize Djokovic and then after I posted what I thought was a workable solution you merely tossed it aside without serious consideration. You are arguably considered the most diplomatic of coaches in this forum but did not even seriously give my post real consideration. Which is ok with me by the way.

Coaching tennis is a way funny business. Either you capitulate to the conventional wisdom or you separate yourself from the herd at the risk of being considered a maverick...or better yet some kind of crackpot or voice in the wilderness. Why is it that anyone would be so hell bent on agreement? It is not in the nature of this thing. Philosophically I feel that the only way to conduct meaningful exchanges are to state your case and put it out there as food for thought.

I never feel the need to dispute other views...except to maybe offer an opposing one. ATP forehand vs. Continental grip anyone? Even then I am not necessarily advocating that anyone or everyone should convert to my way of thinking...just take it into consideration. Take everything into consideration for that matter. That's all. Afterall...I feel that a good to great tennis coach needs to adapt to the students and should be equipped to coach the game in all shapes and forms. Different strokes for different folks...ever heard that expression? Not everyone is cut out to play like the prototypical professional tennis player these days. Why should all profesionals play the same game for that matter?

But with regards to this Nadal vs. Djokovic rivalry. The record currently stands at 19-15 advantage to Nadal. You can see the trends and it goes back and forth. Nadal has won three out of the last four. He is coming back from a rather long competitive layoff and he may not be back to peak form yet. My old coach used to tell me that it takes so many tournaments under your belt to arrive at peak form. I am pretty certain that Nadal my be some distance away from his peak form. I suspect his comeback was planned to peak right around the French...Roland Garros. That first set with Djokovic gave me that impression. But even so...he was back in it in the second and made a fight out of it...but he sputtered a bit in the face of the toughest onslaught in tennis at the present. It figures.

It is an interesting match up...and one that is fairly even. It has swung back and forth a number of times and their matches tend to be very close. Intangibles could very well be the deciding factor in some matches. For instance...who was feeling better on a given day...or who was getting along better with their significant other the night before a match. It always amazed me that Björn Borg won the five straight Wimbledon's in a row. To never catch a cold or have a spousal blowup during that run was really amazing. Know what I mean?

However, I think it is important to try to become a player that can play their game and adapt to the challenges presented. I want to be the puzzle solver not the puzzle.

As lobndropshot so astutely observes...one of the fundamental mental attributes or abilities of championship level tennis players is their ability to adapt to different situations...whether it is weather, surfaces, crowds or opponents. Game conditions. It really is a big puzzle in the final analysis. Nadal's tennis game has evolved to this point not only on his ability to impose his game on his opponents but like everybody else that has gotten to the top of the mountain in professional tennis he has learned how to adapt and to change. The two adjustments or changes that I think are worth exploring are doable for a man of his talent...the question is...is the motivation or the impetus there? Will his team of advisors understand what Djokovic is doing tactically and whether they feel that an adjustment in their philosophy is required?

I think that Nadal has more potential. That is...I think he has room for improvement. He is too predictable with his serve and he needs to be able to kick it way out to the forehand when the situation calls for it. He needs to hit a flat cannonball as well to the same spot. At the same time he should be able to swing it way wide in the other direction and use these two different aspects or components of service tactics to his advantage. Actually three...now I am advocating more of a cannonball delivery as well. The flat boomer.

It is the question about the backhand that I find intriguing. It is not a matter of borrowing a shot or having one loaned to him...it is a matter of developing one. I am not so certain that this recommendation that I made is beyond his scope although certainly it requires a lot of thought and a lot of work. Tilden tells a wonderful story about how he rethought and developed his backhand being motivated by a defeat to one of his rivals. Too bad with all of the time off recently his team didn't think to rethink, reboot and retool some of his game for the adversary that he now faces in Djokovic. Djokovic has obviously made some of the necessary considerations...why shouldn't Nadal? Isn't that what Spin Doctors do...I spin, you spin...we all spin together.

Is this post too long? Not that I care. Not everyone is in "complete agreement"...not that it matters one iota. Read 'em and weep...that's what I say.

[lobndropshot]

I think that Nadal has more potential. That is...I think he has room for improvement. He is too predictable with his serve and he needs to be able to kick it way out to the forehand when the situation calls for it. He needs to hit a flat cannonball as well to the same spot. At the same time he should be able to swing it way wide in the other direction and use these two different aspects or components of service tactics to his advantage. Actually three...now I am advocating more of a cannonball delivery as well. The flat boomer.

It is the question about the backhand that I find intriguing. It is not a matter of borrowing a shot or having one loaned to him...it is a matter of developing one. I am not so certain that this recommendation that I made is beyond his scope although certainly it requires a lot of thought and a lot of work. Tilden tells a wonderful story about how he rethought and developed his backhand being motivated by a defeat to one of his rivals. Too bad with all of the time off recently his team didn't think to rethink, reboot and retool some of his game for the adversary that he now faces in Djokovic. Djokovic has obviously made some of the necessary considerations...why shouldn't Nadal? Isn't that what Spin Doctors do...I spin, you spin...we all spin together.

Thanks for the shout out don_budge!

Have you seen the show Dragon Ball Z? In this show there is a room where one day on the outside of this room is equal to one year on the inside. For Nadal to add the things that you mention to his game he would need a week in this room.

You are right Nadal would have a better chance if he added a slice backhand to his game and a few new serves. However, the Bull is fighting against time.

[GeoffWilliams]

He slices his bh a lot, but it tends to lay up, not skid through, and he tends to always try to get it deep, rather than draw the short game into the net.

[jbill]

Madrid and Rome

In my opinion, predicting whether Nadal or Djockovic wins the French Open will depend a lot on what happens in Madrid and Rome.

It does seem that the Joker has the Bull by the horns at this point in time, although as mentioned previously, Nadal may not be up to his optimal form yet. His movement on court doesn't seem as good as it has been in the past. Right now it doesn't appear that Nadal has anything that can hurt Djockovic.

If the Joker wins both Madrid and Rome, I think he has a rather large mental advantage over Nadal. He will be in his head big time. In that case, I predict the Joker will take Roland Garros.

By the way, what the heck happens to Murray when he steps on clay? You would think he has the perfect game to beat almost everyone, but he never does. Last year he came very close to taking down Djockovic in Rome, but got tight and lost a very interesting match.

Jim Bill

[10splayer]

Maybe Nadal should switch to a continental forehand.

[don_budge]

Another mouthful...from jbill. Nadal at the Barcelona Open 2013.

In my opinion, predicting whether Nadal or Djockovic wins the French Open will depend a lot on what happens in Madrid and Rome.

It does seem that the Joker has the Bull by the horns at this point in time, although as mentioned previously, Nadal may not be up to his optimal form yet. His movement on court doesn't seem as good as it has been in the past. Right now it doesn't appear that Nadal has anything that can hurt Djockovic.

If the Joker wins both Madrid and Rome, I think he has a rather large mental advantage over Nadal. He will be in his head big time. In that case, I predict the Joker will take Roland Garros.

By the way, what the heck happens to Murray when he steps on clay? You would think he has the perfect game to beat almost everyone, but he never does. Last year he came very close to taking down Djockovic in Rome, but got tight and lost a very interesting match.

Jim Bill

Another interesting post jbill. It really doesn't do any good to try and predict who is going to win what. All things being equal...and they rarely are...anything can happen when the top players draw their swords. Er...their racquets.

But with regards to this business about Nadal's match form, I believe that his whole comeback probably was timed for him to peak at the French Open and for his momentum to carry him through the rest of the year. In this regard I think that his brain trust is doing a masterful job of timing his return to form. He has won a couple of matches easily in the later rounds down in Barcelona with a big final coming up today against his countryman Nicolas Almagro. We should get a update on his form after that match. I suspect that he is getting stronger, fitter and more match tough with each passing match.

A loss like the one that he suffered against Djokovic in Monte Carlo is not going to deter him one iota. The post match remarks reflected as much. Nadal wished Djokovic luck in the rest of his year...as if to say, "I'll see you in Paris". It will only serve to make him hungrier and work harder. This guy is one tough cookie on clay but as it is...Djokovic appears to be closing the gap. I thought he may have had the Spanish Bull by the horns at last years French Open if it had not been for the rain delay that sent the remainder of the match into the next day. Nadal was saved by the rain because it looked to me that the tactics of Djokovic had him on the ropes...as expressed in the Tilden chapter of playing the score.

If they meet in the Finals at the French Open it should be quite exciting..to say the least. But there appears to be some other players that are getting some big ideas as well. I certainly hope so.