Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Pull, Flip, and Roll!

[vgrin545]

Pull, Flip and Roll

It looks like Rick is teaching the lay back of the wrist at the beginning of the loop.

Vitaly.

[bottle]

And makes that work. Which makes me mad/sad that I tried to imitate him on that for so long. Because I get more racket head speed when I've laid back the wrist sooner.

[vgrin545]

Pull, Flip and Roll

During his presentation Rick shows how Federer does it. It was my observation that Federer does not lay back his wrist until the flip starts.

[stroke]

Brian points out in his part 2 article on the type 3 forehand that the bent arm is still the predominant forehand technique in men's tennis. To me, it is really kind of difficult to find examples of the completely straight arm type 3's other than Federer and Nadal, which are probably the best forehands in the world. Del Potro and Verdasco, also with huge forehands, also use the straight arm technique. Rick points out in his latest presentation on the type 3 that the straight arm technique really takes advantage of, or taps into the shoulder as the driving force behind the straight arm technique. That may be the predominant advantage to the straight arm technique. I know if one were going to push open a door and and turn the door knob at the same time, a straight arm would supply more power to the effort.

[stotty]

An interesting question here is does this technique (the down, back, and flip) apply to the double bend forehands? The model here is clearly Roger Federer (and I would suggest as well Raphael Nadal) both who hit with straight arms. Rick shows how this straight arm position gets established with his "elbow up" to "elbow extension" instruction which creates the straight armed forehand.

My personal observation is "No". If you study Djokovic or Murray for example, you will see that they establish the double bend hitting structure early and therefore can't incorporate that extreme down, back, and flip that Rick demonstrates.

This leads to a bunch of questions. Would it be harder for a club level player to incorporate this radical flip with straight arm technique? My guess is "yes" but I could be wrong.

The other question is how superior is the straight armed flip technique when the other top two players in the world (Djokovic and Murray) use the traditional double bend? If it works for them then clearly the double bend forehand minus the extreme flip is a hell of a weapon - but is there an advantage to the straight armed flip. My answer here would also be "yes". Clearly Nadal and Federer are able to do things with their forehands that the others can't. More explosive. More spin. That's why they have been able to things that other players can't.

But then again is it a model we should copy? Aren't the heavy, massive forehands of Djokovic and Murray, good enough?

I don't know if there are easy answers here, but I do think Rick and Brian have done an outstanding job understanding and teaching this "new" forehand. It's one of the most intriguing advances in the sport within the past twenty years I'd say and really demands the kind of work Brian and Rick are doing. Very lucky to have them working on it.

Nice post!

The straight arm forehand is better than a double bend for creating vertical racquet head speed. This is the key difference between straight arm versus double bend when it comes to the flip. So a player with a straight arm configuration has the potential to produce more topspin than a double bend player if he wants to tap in to it. The straight arm method utilizes greater shoulder external rotation than the double bend...and I guess more upper arm.

So the “straight arm” lovers will feel they’ve won the battle in terms of the flip. However, the timing of the flip using the straight arm technique is thought to be more tricky...a bummer for the club player one would think. Very few club players use a "straight arm" in my experience. The vast majority are double bend.

Federer uses both configurations and some inbetween. I think this is why his forehand is so good...is the most versatile forehand in the history of the game.

[jeffreycounts]

Double Behind Forehand

An interesting question here is does this technique (the down, back, and flip) apply to the double bend forehands? The model here is clearly Roger Federer (and I would suggest as well Raphael Nadal) both who hit with straight arms. Rick shows how this straight arm position gets established with his "elbow up" to "elbow extension" instruction which creates the straight armed forehand.

My personal observation is "No". If you study Djokovic or Murray for example, you will see that they establish the double bend hitting structure early and therefore can't incorporate that extreme down, back, and flip that Rick demonstrates.

This leads to a bunch of questions. Would it be harder for a club level player to incorporate this radical flip with straight arm technique? My guess is "yes" but I could be wrong.

The other question is how superior is the straight armed flip technique when the other top two players in the world (Djokovic and Murray) use the traditional double bend? If it works for them then clearly the double bend forehand minus the extreme flip is a hell of a weapon - but is there an advantage to the straight armed flip. My answer here would also be "yes". Clearly Nadal and Federer are able to do things with their forehands that the others can't. More explosive. More spin. That's why they have been able to things that other players can't.

But then again is it a model we should copy? Aren't the heavy, massive forehands of Djokovic and Murray, good enough?

I don't know if there are easy answers here, but I do think Rick and Brian have done an outstanding job understanding and teaching this "new" forehand. It's one of the most intriguing advances in the sport within the past twenty years I'd say and really demands the kind of work Brian and Rick are doing. Very lucky to have them working on it.

[bottle]

To me it's not a pause, it's more like resistance....caused by bones going one way and muscles and tendons momentarily resisting ...then being pulled along whether they like it or not as the counter rotations take place.

Resistance, right, and then a snap-back (or rather snap-forward).

So, just to contemplate a semiwestern or strong eastern forehand as if one has never seen one much less hit a million of them, can shoulders use whatever time is available to wind back then wind forward with no transition in between?

One might even start leg drive before the shoulders were wound all the way back.

One is supposed to be too late, according to conventional coaching, if one doesn't get shoulders turned back IMMEDIATELY and THOROUGHLY-- just because of the speed of the modern game.

On the other hand one has bought time if one doesn't turn shoulders, stop them, perform a breast-stroke like swimming motion (this expression from you), then turn shoulders forward as part of a kinetic chain.

So if one can successfully buy time, why can't one spend it on a smoother backswing integrated with all footwork to the ball (like Roger Federer in my eyes).

In competition, you might hit the ball better than ever before. I'll see if that's true for me tonight.

In any case, a seamless change of shoulders direction helps zip the racket down and around the laid back hand...if one has gotten early to Rick's "try this" position as outlined in his first video.

[stotty]

Pause...or resistance?

what do you think of eliminating pause between backward and forward rotations in the new forehand everybody is talking about? I'd like to know what anybody thinks about that. All I know right now is that I'm doing it and it seems to generate more spin and accuracy (self-feeding), but I'll start to get a real handle on it in competition tomorrow night.

To me it's not a pause, it's more like resistance....caused by bones going one way and muscles and tendons momentarily resisting ...then being pulled along whether they like it or not as the counter rotations take place. That's what it feels like when I experiment with the stroke (using a semi-western grip). That's how I feel the SSC is mostly created. I use continental so it's been a totally new experience for me.

It's very hard to flip with a continental grip which makes the grip obsolete in my book. To turbocharge a forehand I honestly feel a player needs to be able to flip. Having a grip that most easily assists that process is pretty darned essential.

[bottle]

I don't understand at all. Maybe in your great enlightenment, you could explain, very clearly, 10splayer, what world's best coach meant by a backward emphasis forehand since I could never understand that, either. And I certainly don't understand what the hell you're trying to do in your recent posts. Is a BTW like a BMW? And who's being obtuse?

If you'd prefer to talk about tennis, what do you think of eliminating pause between backward and forward rotations in the new forehand everybody is talking about? I'd like to know what anybody thinks about that. All I know right now is that I'm doing it and it seems to generate more spin and accuracy (self-feeding), but I'll start to get a real handle on it in competition tomorrow night.

I'm a big believer in experimentation. I'm always looking for something not yet achieved. Are you like that? I'm beginning to wonder. I'm sure I could play (or could have played) at a higher level if I started as a kid and didn't change much. But I'm pretty excited by the course I did choose.

It's very easy to detect when somebody is baiting and not doing anything more.

[10splayer]

There is one opinion on this subject that I would dearly love to hear from....none other than worldsbestcoach. I know that you guys pooh-pooh'd him into submission...but I always found his comments to be rather thoughtful and insightful, not to mention provocative. I am curious if he would call this approach to a forehand to be a "backward emphasis" of which he was rather critical if I understood him correctly.

No, I don't think you understand at all. Fed/type 3 would be the antithesis of a backward emphasis.

[howardb]

Forearm position

This video has helped me Very much this week. I also, for me, found that as I flipped the racquet to begin the pull, my forearm (of necessity) turned "open", so to speak. I had been fighting that sensation for a long time in tennis. Watching Rick, I now see that is wherein the tension for power starts. Not that I have to think of that. Good pulling makes it happen, almost automatically. But once I saw /felt it happen it gives one more innate and natural stroking. And understanding. JUST AMAZING.
Thx to Rick and all concerned.
Wonderful video !!

[bottle]

Agree about keeping the racket outside.

And I really welcome these differing accounts of how different people are dealing with the same new development. Please, people, more!

But if the new method were perfect in its simplicity, why would one need a lesson with Scott Murphy (though I'm jealous)?

My personal view here: Nothing is ever simple, not even the most simple thing.

These two videos may be among the most effective ever, but then Rick opens another possibility beyond the basic (in first video)-- taking left hand off of the racket sooner and pointing across sooner as John Yandell suggested to Alexandra Franco that he (JY) does.

Now we have two different ways of using the same knowledge. And if there are a couple more options under these initial choices-- well, soon there will be an exponential rise in possibility.

Personal narrative: One time long ago a USPTA pro came along and saw me self-feeding forehands in which I had eliminated the pause between the backward and forward rotations. Or was it against a ball machine-- can't remember. In either case, this former doubles partner of John McEnroe in Maine, Jim Kacian, didn't criticize. Nor did he suggest ways to make my experiment work even better. But he was curious and didn't think the hits or my mechanics looked bad and maybe even approved.

In the decades that followed, I fooled with this idea but seldom hit the ball in competition that way.

Now, finally, I'm trying it again.

Why, in the ATP Forehand, should one lose the momentum of backward body rotation when conflict between gross body and racket tip is what we seekers of easy racket head speed all share?

I'm sure there is more than one way to achieve the goal, but have written more already on my personal take in "A New Year's Serve."

[bmonsour]

Key for me is keeping the racquet outside

I had a 1 hour session with Scott Murphy today. Right before the session, I re-watched Rick's 1st part and then the 2nd part. Scott and I talked a lot about the mechanics and what was so effective.

My challenges have been keeping the left hand on the racquet long enough and really feeling that stretch across the left lat and, 2, keeping the racquet head "outside" and lining it up with the incoming ball. When I do both of those, and pull, the flip happens and the ball just goes!

It's going to take some time to bring the combination together for more of my forehands, but it's wonderfully exciting to be able to crack the ball that way without a ton of effort.

Many thanks to Rick and Brian for bringing it to us in such a simple way.

[privas]

beautiful lesson!

That was the most amazing forehand lesson I have ever seen. Wow! I also enjoy, on lower bounces, mixing in a few low-to-high forehands with the throw-back eastern forehand grip, just like the old days, to keep my opponents off balance.

[stroke]

As I remember, wbc felt Federer had a "backwards" type forehand and as such, was not a model of what wbc was promoting. Brian and Rick have Federer as the prototype for the type 3.