Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Pull, Flip, and Roll!

[stotty]

An interesting question here is does this technique (the down, back, and flip) apply to the double bend forehands? The model here is clearly Roger Federer (and I would suggest as well Raphael Nadal) both who hit with straight arms. Rick shows how this straight arm position gets established with his "elbow up" to "elbow extension" instruction which creates the straight armed forehand.

My personal observation is "No". If you study Djokovic or Murray for example, you will see that they establish the double bend hitting structure early and therefore can't incorporate that extreme down, back, and flip that Rick demonstrates.

This leads to a bunch of questions. Would it be harder for a club level player to incorporate this radical flip with straight arm technique? My guess is "yes" but I could be wrong.

The other question is how superior is the straight armed flip technique when the other top two players in the world (Djokovic and Murray) use the traditional double bend? If it works for them then clearly the double bend forehand minus the extreme flip is a hell of a weapon - but is there an advantage to the straight armed flip. My answer here would also be "yes". Clearly Nadal and Federer are able to do things with their forehands that the others can't. More explosive. More spin. That's why they have been able to things that other players can't.

But then again is it a model we should copy? Aren't the heavy, massive forehands of Djokovic and Murray, good enough?

I don't know if there are easy answers here, but I do think Rick and Brian have done an outstanding job understanding and teaching this "new" forehand. It's one of the most intriguing advances in the sport within the past twenty years I'd say and really demands the kind of work Brian and Rick are doing. Very lucky to have them working on it.

Nice post!

The straight arm forehand is better than a double bend for creating vertical racquet head speed. This is the key difference between straight arm versus double bend when it comes to the flip. So a player with a straight arm configuration has the potential to produce more topspin than a double bend player if he wants to tap in to it. The straight arm method utilizes greater shoulder external rotation than the double bend...and I guess more upper arm.

So the “straight arm” lovers will feel they’ve won the battle in terms of the flip. However, the timing of the flip using the straight arm technique is thought to be more tricky...a bummer for the club player one would think. Very few club players use a "straight arm" in my experience. The vast majority are double bend.

Federer uses both configurations and some inbetween. I think this is why his forehand is so good...is the most versatile forehand in the history of the game.

[stroke]

Brian points out in his part 2 article on the type 3 forehand that the bent arm is still the predominant forehand technique in men's tennis. To me, it is really kind of difficult to find examples of the completely straight arm type 3's other than Federer and Nadal, which are probably the best forehands in the world. Del Potro and Verdasco, also with huge forehands, also use the straight arm technique. Rick points out in his latest presentation on the type 3 that the straight arm technique really takes advantage of, or taps into the shoulder as the driving force behind the straight arm technique. That may be the predominant advantage to the straight arm technique. I know if one were going to push open a door and and turn the door knob at the same time, a straight arm would supply more power to the effort.

[vgrin545]

Pull, Flip and Roll

During his presentation Rick shows how Federer does it. It was my observation that Federer does not lay back his wrist until the flip starts.

[bottle]

And makes that work. Which makes me mad/sad that I tried to imitate him on that for so long. Because I get more racket head speed when I've laid back the wrist sooner.

[vgrin545]

Pull, Flip and Roll

It looks like Rick is teaching the lay back of the wrist at the beginning of the loop.

Vitaly.

[vgrin545]

Pull, Flip and Roll

I looked at Marat Safin forehand as well. No lay back during the loop.

Safin just starts left arm movement forward slightly earlier than Federer.

Vitaly.

[stroke]

And makes that work. Which makes me mad/sad that I tried to imitate him on that for so long. Because I get more racket head speed when I've laid back the wrist sooner.

It looks like to me, and Jeff Counts has also mentioned,, that the Federer forehand is the model for Brian Gordon's identified type 3 forehand. Yet no one else looks like Federer hitting theirs. So beautiful to watch, so hard to duplicate. It may be like kind of like the serve, where no 2 pros look exactly the same.

[jbill]

Double-bend and the flip

Jeffreycounts, first of all let me say that I appreciate the articles you have written that appear on tennisplayer.net. You have obviously studied the modern forehand strokes considerably.

But I'm not sure of the question you raise with respect to whether the double-bend forehand strokes produced by such players as Djokovic and Murray integrate the flip? When you look at Joker and Murrays' forehand strokes from a rearview perspective I think it is fair to say that they definitely have a flip and that is where a lot of their racquet head speed is developed.

What is significant to me is not so much how straight the hitting arm is at contact, but the fact that the elbow is away from the body core which allows the elbow to hinge and release and thus to contribute to racquet head speed. The double-bend structure certainly allows the hitting-arm elbow to be away from the body core at contact.

I'm not sure that Rick Macci would disagree with this evaluation. He even says at one point in his demonstration that Fed and Nadal sometimes hit with arms that are not always straight. I really can't see that hitting with the double bend structure restricts or prevents a "flip" in any way.

jbill

[johnyandell]

jb,

Agreed it doesn't! There may be technical advantages to the straight arm that don't have to do with the flip. Brian I think would argue that you get increased independent arm motion from the shoulder.

But that straight arm thing is much more difficult to pull off--for one thing the earlier contact point. So not sure that the average player needs to worry about it. If you get the outside backswing and the pull you will flip!

[jbill]

straight arm technique

Also, hitting with a straight arm must certainly put more strain on the elbow joint which for anyone who has experienced tennis elbow problems would surely be a technique to stay away from.

jbill

[jeffreycounts]

Jeffreycounts, first of all let me say that I appreciate the articles you have written that appear on tennisplayer.net. You have obviously studied the modern forehand strokes considerably.

But I'm not sure of the question you raise with respect to whether the double-bend forehand strokes produced by such players as Djokovic and Murray integrate the flip? When you look at Joker and Murrays' forehand strokes from a rearview perspective I think it is fair to say that they definitely have a flip and that is where a lot of their racquet head speed is developed.

What is significant to me is not so much how straight the hitting arm is at contact, but the fact that the elbow is away from the body core which allows the elbow to hinge and release and thus to contribute to racquet head speed. The double-bend structure certainly allows the hitting-arm elbow to be away from the body core at contact.

I'm not sure that Rick Macci would disagree with this evaluation. He even says at one point in his demonstration that Fed and Nadal sometimes hit with arms that are not always straight. I really can't see that hitting with the double bend structure restricts or prevents a "flip" in any way.

jbill

Yes, the flip is there - I don't disagree at all. But it is a less extreme flip and it happens much sooner with Djokovic and Murray (double bend) leading to a pulling through the slot at an earlier stage. What Macci is showing is a much more radical flip that occurs which I think is possible because of the straight arm.

So I agree with you about the flip and it's importance, but if you compare how and when it occurs with Fed and Nadal, I think it is different. I will look at it some more though because it is an interesting question.

I do think that the straight arm does change when and how extreme the flip occurs and therefore why Federer and Nadal's forehands are so much more explosive.

I certainly agree with you about the elbow. Federer's finish is completely different from anyone other forehand. The elbow breaks off and the finish is in tight to the body. Very different from the "box" finish I talk about in one of my articles. Another example, at least for me, of how Federer's forehand is technically different from other players.

In the end, the fact that Rick and Brian have identified the flip and it's importance to the stroke is monumental - both for double bends and straight armed forehand.

[jbill]

clarification

Thanks for the reply and clarification, jeffreycounts.

jbill

[bottle]

New Rx for Adapting ATP FH

Personal, personal, personal.

So beware.

And personally adapt your own adoption.

Unless you're unsure.

Then you could try mine.

Don't get too high with anything.

No nuthin but body on unit turn.

Lay back wrist and straighten arm (tap the dog) on point (i.e., as you point across at side fence with non-hitting arm).

Body has virtually reversed. Well, in your head it has already reversed.

How low is this? Very. Remember, you started with forearm parallel to court, so you've cocked and tapped the racket low.

The cocked and tapped racket will be on a slanting down arm, quite low, but out to side, too.

I love this since now my two main forehands, ATP FH and John McEnroe Imitation, will get racket to same low spot though in contrasting ways.

I'll think through higher balls another time.

[bottle]

After a Trip to Court

And if you're going to have racket tip raked toward net a little for slightly more whirl, why would you ever arrange this during backward or forward swings when you could already have it in wait position?

[dpremsagar]

For now, I believe most of this instruction would apply to the double bend too except we don't extend the elbow before flipping.

I'm a novice. Please let me know if I'm wrong.