Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Pull, Flip, and Roll!

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

I just saw this thread. I saw don_budge's curiosity about my opinion on Macci's forehand. Yes, I think Macci teaches the topspin forehand the way many pro players today hit that stroke. Yes, I think Macci's forehand wrongly teaches students to let the ball come to them, rather than attack the ball in a forward manner. Yes, I would categorize Macci's forehand as a backwards-set, or backwards-emphasis, forehand.

The Macci style forehand has in part destroyed the quality of tennis at the world class & top junior levels. It has infested the sport with complications & so many unforced errors & inaccurate shots. Sadly, so many kids are good at copying what the pros do on TV.

[bottle]

Yup.

[gzhpcu]

I don't know. The characterizations of Oscar and what he actually says or implies are frequently different. I remember a lot of Oscar about catching the ball with the hand. And WBTC recently suggested that Stanislas Wawrinka sites for a backhand-- in forward set-- with edge of his racket. Today in A New Year's Serve I settle on wrist as the stupid little thing that might make a big difference in siting for my one hand topspin backhand. I picked wrist as my "rifle site" because it stays relatively still even if the hand is hinging around just then. Though a pacifist, I think a rifle site ought to stay still.

When I tried to do a lot of Oscar he urged me to use more feel than logic. In his books, there is a paragraph or section or sentence or phrase about how a player should use his individuality in working out shape of the last fast bit in which the racket head goes back then forward to the ball. That's where Oscar sees most room for variation-- I am not sure exactly where he states that but he does state it in his two fascinating books.

The larger point seems what Jim McLennan says in one of his videos: "We used to start with racket back and swing forward. Now we start with racket forward and swing backward and forward and backward."

Oscar says:

Track the ball as if you were going to catch it. Keep the non-playing hand on the throat of the racquet to prevent it from going back too early.

Jim describes the modern approach leading to a much longer acceleration path for the racket...

[bottle]

I don't know. The characterizations of Oscar and what he actually says or implies are frequently different. I remember a lot of Oscar about catching the ball with the hand. And WBTC recently suggested that Stanislas Wawrinka sites for a backhand-- in forward set-- with edge of his racket. Today in A New Year's Serve I settle on wrist as the stupid little thing that might make a big difference in siting for my one hand topspin backhand. I picked wrist as my "rifle site" because it stays relatively still even if the hand is hinging around just then. Though a pacifist, I think a rifle site ought to stay still.

When I tried to do a lot of Oscar he urged me to use more feel than logic. In his books, there is a paragraph or section or sentence or phrase about how a player should use his individuality in working out shape of the last fast bit in which the racket head goes back then forward to the ball. That's where Oscar sees most room for variation-- I am not sure exactly where he states that but he does state it in his two fascinating books.

The larger point seems what Jim McLennan says in a video: "We used to start with racket back and swing forward. Now we start with racket forward and swing backward and forward and backward."

[gzhpcu]

And if you're going to have racket tip raked toward net a little for slightly more whirl, why would you ever arrange this during backward or forward swings when you could already have it in wait position?

Excuse me if I have misunderstood you.

My understanding is that having the racket tip pointed towards the ball is what Oscar Wegner recommends ("stalking the ball") and that this is the wait position for him, after which the fast loop and acceleration occurs...

[dpremsagar]

For now, I believe most of this instruction would apply to the double bend too except we don't extend the elbow before flipping.

I'm a novice. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

[bottle]

After a Trip to Court

And if you're going to have racket tip raked toward net a little for slightly more whirl, why would you ever arrange this during backward or forward swings when you could already have it in wait position?

[bottle]

New Rx for Adapting ATP FH

Personal, personal, personal.

So beware.

And personally adapt your own adoption.

Unless you're unsure.

Then you could try mine.

Don't get too high with anything.

No nuthin but body on unit turn.

Lay back wrist and straighten arm (tap the dog) on point (i.e., as you point across at side fence with non-hitting arm).

Body has virtually reversed. Well, in your head it has already reversed.

How low is this? Very. Remember, you started with forearm parallel to court, so you've cocked and tapped the racket low.

The cocked and tapped racket will be on a slanting down arm, quite low, but out to side, too.

I love this since now my two main forehands, ATP FH and John McEnroe Imitation, will get racket to same low spot though in contrasting ways.

I'll think through higher balls another time.

[jbill]

clarification

Thanks for the reply and clarification, jeffreycounts.

jbill

[jeffreycounts]

Jeffreycounts, first of all let me say that I appreciate the articles you have written that appear on tennisplayer.net. You have obviously studied the modern forehand strokes considerably.

But I'm not sure of the question you raise with respect to whether the double-bend forehand strokes produced by such players as Djokovic and Murray integrate the flip? When you look at Joker and Murrays' forehand strokes from a rearview perspective I think it is fair to say that they definitely have a flip and that is where a lot of their racquet head speed is developed.

What is significant to me is not so much how straight the hitting arm is at contact, but the fact that the elbow is away from the body core which allows the elbow to hinge and release and thus to contribute to racquet head speed. The double-bend structure certainly allows the hitting-arm elbow to be away from the body core at contact.

I'm not sure that Rick Macci would disagree with this evaluation. He even says at one point in his demonstration that Fed and Nadal sometimes hit with arms that are not always straight. I really can't see that hitting with the double bend structure restricts or prevents a "flip" in any way.

jbill

Yes, the flip is there - I don't disagree at all. But it is a less extreme flip and it happens much sooner with Djokovic and Murray (double bend) leading to a pulling through the slot at an earlier stage. What Macci is showing is a much more radical flip that occurs which I think is possible because of the straight arm.

So I agree with you about the flip and it's importance, but if you compare how and when it occurs with Fed and Nadal, I think it is different. I will look at it some more though because it is an interesting question.

I do think that the straight arm does change when and how extreme the flip occurs and therefore why Federer and Nadal's forehands are so much more explosive.

I certainly agree with you about the elbow. Federer's finish is completely different from anyone other forehand. The elbow breaks off and the finish is in tight to the body. Very different from the "box" finish I talk about in one of my articles. Another example, at least for me, of how Federer's forehand is technically different from other players.

In the end, the fact that Rick and Brian have identified the flip and it's importance to the stroke is monumental - both for double bends and straight armed forehand.

[jbill]

straight arm technique

Also, hitting with a straight arm must certainly put more strain on the elbow joint which for anyone who has experienced tennis elbow problems would surely be a technique to stay away from.

jbill

[johnyandell]

jb,

Agreed it doesn't! There may be technical advantages to the straight arm that don't have to do with the flip. Brian I think would argue that you get increased independent arm motion from the shoulder.

But that straight arm thing is much more difficult to pull off--for one thing the earlier contact point. So not sure that the average player needs to worry about it. If you get the outside backswing and the pull you will flip!

[jbill]

Double-bend and the flip

Jeffreycounts, first of all let me say that I appreciate the articles you have written that appear on tennisplayer.net. You have obviously studied the modern forehand strokes considerably.

But I'm not sure of the question you raise with respect to whether the double-bend forehand strokes produced by such players as Djokovic and Murray integrate the flip? When you look at Joker and Murrays' forehand strokes from a rearview perspective I think it is fair to say that they definitely have a flip and that is where a lot of their racquet head speed is developed.

What is significant to me is not so much how straight the hitting arm is at contact, but the fact that the elbow is away from the body core which allows the elbow to hinge and release and thus to contribute to racquet head speed. The double-bend structure certainly allows the hitting-arm elbow to be away from the body core at contact.

I'm not sure that Rick Macci would disagree with this evaluation. He even says at one point in his demonstration that Fed and Nadal sometimes hit with arms that are not always straight. I really can't see that hitting with the double bend structure restricts or prevents a "flip" in any way.

jbill

[stroke]

And makes that work. Which makes me mad/sad that I tried to imitate him on that for so long. Because I get more racket head speed when I've laid back the wrist sooner.

It looks like to me, and Jeff Counts has also mentioned,, that the Federer forehand is the model for Brian Gordon's identified type 3 forehand. Yet no one else looks like Federer hitting theirs. So beautiful to watch, so hard to duplicate. It may be like kind of like the serve, where no 2 pros look exactly the same.

[vgrin545]

Pull, Flip and Roll

I looked at Marat Safin forehand as well. No lay back during the loop.

Safin just starts left arm movement forward slightly earlier than Federer.

Vitaly.