A New Teaching System: The Serve: Swing Path

[tennis_chiro]

I know it\\\'s been ages. Have attached the serve which we took before the series of tournaments about 2 months ago. Still a work in progress but has come along. Her extension and contact wasn\\\'t the greatest in this video but you get the idea and compared to the original a big improvement. Thoughts always welcome.

It\'s really amazing how well she\'s managed to put all that leg action together. But I really wonder what would happen if she focused for just a couple of weeks on getting the internal shoulder rotation completed before the her arm passed horizontal on the followthrough - that is, if she got the racket face to make the additional 75 degrees of movement to vertical before her arm got to horizontal in front of her on the follow through, or even a little after her arm got to that point. She has tremendous leg thrust; but I think the effect would pale in comparison to what she would get out of actually getting all of the internal shoulder rotation and snap into the serve that she is capable of.

don

[stotty]

I know it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s been ages. Have attached the serve which we took before the series of tournaments about 2 months ago. Still a work in progress but has come along. Her extension and contact wasn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t the greatest in this video but you get the idea and compared to the original a big improvement. Thoughts always welcome.

Congratulations with your charge. Things have moved on for sure.

We are having trouble posting due to these \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\ popping up when the apostrophe is used. John says it will be fixed Wednesday. I will keep this post brief but something to think about nonetheless. The will be no apostrophes used.

I have a girl whose serve is similar to Zoes. The other day I was thinking why does her serve look like that? Why is it a little disconnected? Why do so many girls serves look like that?

So I went into the archive and studied rhythm and the back leg. My girl, like Zoe, brings her back foot up to the front foot what seems a little late, then pushes to the ground with an exaggerated knee bend. It has a Sharapova look.

If you study the men, they often synch that back leg moving up to the front foot much better. If you watch Ljubicic, he starts that process earlier than most women seem to. The end result is everything synchs up better and rhythm is greatly improved.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/ivan_ljubicic/il_serve/il_1st_serve/1st_serve.html?IL1stSDeuceRear1.mov

[don_budge]

Comments? But of course…mlogarzo

Thoughts always welcome.

Good to know…I just happened to have a few. Quite a few.

It is a work in progress is it not? It always is. With a motion as complex as the service motion…as in a golf swing. One can make a lifetime out of it. Superb post and some really super coaching…mlogarzo. I am going to wait to make my comments until John can get his programmer to fix his keyboard snafu.

[mlogarzo]

I remember the girl\'s serve well. It would be fabulous to see it two years on...is it really that long ago!!

I know it\'s been ages. Have attached the serve which we took before the series of tournaments about 2 months ago. Still a work in progress but has come along. Her extension and contact wasn\'t the greatest in this video but you get the idea and compared to the original a big improvement. Thoughts always welcome.

[stotty]

Hey everyone,

Been a while since i've posted on the forum. Almost 2 years ago I posted a video of a girl i started coaching who was one of the top 16 year olds in the country. (Australia). A lot has happened since then, she's coming along really well and just over a month ago won't her first professional tournament, an ITF Pro Circuit 15k and lifted her ranking from 943 to 493 in a month!!

Her serve which was the topic of this thread has also come a long long way, and now much more confident shot. The rhythm is much better and it no longer breaks down under pressure. Was trying to attach the vid but having some technical issue. Will work on it.

I remember the girl's serve well. It would be fabulous to see it two years on...is it really that long ago!!

[mlogarzo]

Hey everyone,

Been a while since i've posted on the forum. Almost 2 years ago I posted a video of a girl i started coaching who was one of the top 16 year olds in the country. (Australia). A lot has happened since then, she's coming along really well and just over a month ago won't her first professional tournament, an ITF Pro Circuit 15k and lifted her ranking from 943 to 493 in a month!!

Her serve which was the topic of this thread has also come a long long way, and now much more confident shot. The rhythm is much better and it no longer breaks down under pressure. Was trying to attach the vid but having some technical issue. Will work on it.

[don_budge]

Just one more thing...the footwork

Still plenty to work on and only part of the way of where I see it finishing. The internal rotation and contact point as you me mentioned is one, her take back, tossing arm going up sooner, pronation to name a few.

Actually mlogarzo...it doesn’t have to be so complicated as all of that and I admire your objectivity. I think that the changes in the setup position have had a great influence on the backswing. The backswing looks as if it could have a tremendous influence on the delivery of the racquet head to the ball. In fact it already has. It is starting to take shape...it is starting to look like the real thing. It looks to me as if she is fully prepared to go forwards...in modifying her service technique in order to actualize her full potential as a server of the tennis ball. It is a question of potential...isn't it?

With the improvements that she has made in her setup and her backswing there is one more thing that she needs to address. The footwork. This is the way that I see it as it appears in the video (which are top notch by the way). The pinpoint has to go.

# of clicks into the video...

#13...foot is nearly off of the ground and pivoting backwards from the baseline. evidence of a lateral shift backwards

#32...foot has replanted itself parallel to the baseline, she is now actually standing in a pidgeon-toed stance almost a foot behind the baseline. too much real estate to be giving up. toe the line.

#44...see how the ball has reached it’s apex. go one click backwards to #43 and then go two forwards to #45. see how little the ball is actually moving...it is almost standing still for two or three clicks.

notice the narrow base from which zoe will now make her move to the ball from. the stance suggests a nearly straight upwards launch to the ball with her rotation restricted by the placement of the feet.

#58...she makes contact with the ball and it doesn’t appear that she is quite as extended as she potentially could be. she has left the ground and is airborne...

What is it about her pinpoint stance that encourages her to toss the ball so high and forces her to hit a ball traveling at a much higher rate of speed than if she was making contact with the ball at or near the apex of her toss? What effect does this have on the effectiveness of her serve?

It looks to me that the lateral move backwards is some kind of compensating move to make room for her movement into the pinpoint stance. This kind of movement is totally unnecessary from my point of view. i have never really subscribed or seen the point of the pinpoint stance. Particularly the way in which she assumes it. There is too much starting and stopping and restarting again.

I think that all list of things that need to be “fixed” will naturally be ironed out once she gets into the platform stance. I have made some oblique references in the past about the service motion being something akin to a golf swing. The point about the movement and speed of movement of the ball in the toss sequence is interesting I think. At click #44 the ball has reached it apex and if you click forwards or backwards from this point in time and space you will notice that the ball barely moves. In effect...if your racquet could somehow meet the ball nearer to this point it would have more of the effect of teeing up the ball.


Australian Princess Zoe would probably be somewhat better off making contact with ball if she threw no higher than where the ball is a full 9 or 10 clicks past #44. If she was in a platform stance this is probably the point where it may be most “natural” to meet the ball. Something about the pinpoint stance encourages the server to heave the ball much higher than necessary and as a consequence when the server is swinging at the descending ball it is traveling much faster than if they had timed the contact to be rather at the apex. Just think...if you are the type of server that serves with slice, top, kick and likes to change direction with your placement, shouldn't you be meeting the ball where there are the minimal number of minimized variables going on? Just a thought...beyond mechanics there are tactics.

That business with the front foot retreating from the baseline in her backswing motion is bothersome to my eye. I think that she should toe that line and extend as far as she can into the court to hit the serve. She actually is doing a rather nice of extending in spite of all of the coming and goings. You might want to consider a bit of a dipping move with the chest as the arms and hands drop from the setup position and then lifting the chest up as the arms and hands reach for the sky...while she is turning her shoulders. If you replace this simpler movement for the lateral shifting you might find more potential in her motion still. In fact...I am quite certain of it.

Convincing her to leave the platform stance behind might be the most difficult part of the whole rigamarole. It’s true...the new stance will make her a bit uncomfortable in the beginning but she has demonstrated a willingness to practice plus a willingness to try new things so that won’t be much of a problem if she intellectually accepts the fact that the platform stance is more in line with the laws of metaphysics as they apply to service fundamentals.

The backswing and general overall shape of her swing is so radically improved it doesn’t make sense to swing this new and aesthetically pleasing service motion from anything other than the most solid and stable of platforms available. I would like to see the groundstrokes as well. This young lady seems to have loads of talent and a lot of other attributes that make up a good tennis player as well as a student of the game. There may be loads of potential in this gold mine to be considered. Maybe some net play...even serve and volley! Why not? She’s an Aussie. Remember that song..."Walk Like an Egyptian"...well I would rather serve like an Australian.

It’s a curious move though that she makes with her front foot after the set up position. By moving it backwards she is actually reestablishing her feet to compensate for that lateral move backwards which is actually an intelligent thing to do in an obtuse sort of way. If she leaves her foot where it originally was then she has to once again traverse the terrain back to the original focal point with her back foot. That would be quite a leap of faith. But why not eliminate all of the “comings and goings” altogether.

Lateral movement is the kiss of death in any golf swing. Inexperienced golfers somehow get the notion that this back and forth movement will somehow transfer impetus into the ball but what it does is serve for more difficult timing in returning to the ball. Truly impetus will be more efficiently created with a mere turning of the shoulders.

Golfers know that the way to create more distance or power in their swing is to turn the shoulders more. If they try for more distance they turn more...they don't necessarily try to swing harder. They certainly don't try to rely on lateral movement. Perhaps something about the reverse dynamics of the serve provides more tolerance for such lateral movement but for me it is “bothersome” to my eye. Sometimes bothersome to me is an indication of faulty fundamentals...as much as I believe that it is in this case. But then again...I am a fundamentalist by nature when it comes to teaching tennis.

Fantastic work in the swing department...now the lower body must be working in synchronicity with the swing. You are right when you mentioned that there was still plenty to work on. Endeavors such as golf swings and service motions are life long projects. Even the best servers are tinkering with the swing...even the best golfers are tinkering with their golf swing. It is the nature of the beast. But I believe that all of those issues that you mentioned will be resolved if you convert this young lady to the platform stance. You will be killing umpteen birds with one stone.

Just some “food for thought”...Mate!

[stotty]

Great improvement...

I think her body rotation and swing path are vastly improved. The swing looks much more fluent and looser at the outset than previously.

I really like the work you've done here. It just shows what you can do with a suspect serve when both coach and student apply themselves. I'm impressed.

[mlogarzo]

Still plenty to work on and only part of the way of where I see it finishing. The internal rotation and contact point as you me mentioned is one, her take back, tossing arm going up sooner, pronation to name a few.

You can have a player spend hours on the practice court perfecting technique but ultimately what will determine progress is whether it stands up in the heat of battle.

All along I've got her to operate on feel. There were times when we worked on something and it felt horrible but she understood that she was doing it correctly and it was supposed to feel 'crap' at first until it became habitual and she got the correct muscle memory. THIS is the point where countless players fail. Because it doesn't feel comfortable or 'right' they don't fully invest in it and give up.

[tennis_chiro]

Looks good

Thanks guys, but to be honest it's much easier to get the results when you have a player who will go out on her own and spend hours practicing it.

The most satisfying aspect is that she has developed a good sound solid second serve with a bit of kick. When i started with her it was non-existent. In August at the ITF in Fiji she played a match against No. 50 ITF Junior serving 18 double faults!!! How she won I don't know.

Find below some videos of her serve. They include from side, from behind and her second serve.

I tired to take a quick look at the videos over the course of this thread

original: post #4, 4/11/13
2nd view: post #30, 8/7/13
most recent: post #40, 12/16/13

I like the progression and the way the backswing has gotten smoother and less deliberate. Still think she could get a little more internal rotation getting the racket face to move to vertical (Sampras position) closer to the contact point, while the arm is still extended up. You can also see the angle of the body is improved as she reaches up to contact.

don

[mlogarzo]

2nd serve

[mlogarzo]

Thanks guys, but to be honest it's much easier to get the results when you have a player who will go out on her own and spend hours practicing it.

The most satisfying aspect is that she has developed a good sound solid second serve with a bit of kick. When i started with her it was non-existent. In August at the ITF in Fiji she played a match against No. 50 ITF Junior serving 18 double faults!!! How she won I don't know.

Find below some videos of her serve. They include from side, from behind and her second serve.

[don_budge]

mlogarzo...

Hi all,

Been a busy few months, but thought i'd pop in and give you an update on Zoe.

This week, she played the 18s Australian Championships and reached the final, unfortunately not having her best day in the big one. More due to not playing a lot of events this year and having that match toughness.

On another note, her serve as come on in leaps and bounds. She has a nice rhythm going, and developed a solid second serve with some kick. She feels great about it, and it's a god send that she no longer has to fight and scrap through service games.

Having said all that, still plenty to work on with it and when I get a chance I'll post a video for you to see.

Cheers

Congratulations...you have been a great service to your tennis student. Thanks so much for sharing her with us here on the forum. Truly it was one of the highlights here in recent memory. I am so looking forwards to seeing her progress. What great fun it was to participate in her education. Thanks for the updates. That is so exciting to hear that she is experiencing good results...the finals of the Aussie 18's is elite company. Take care...Mate!

Of course...huge thanks to John for this wonderful series on the classic service motion which made all of this discussion possible. Great food for thought!

[stotty]

Hi all,

Been a busy few months, but thought i'd pop in and give you an update on Zoe.

This week, she played the 18s Australian Championships and reached the final, unfortunately not having her best day in the big one. More due to not playing a lot of events this year and having that match toughness.

On another note, her serve as come on in leaps and bounds. She has a nice rhythm going, and developed a solid second serve with some kick. She feels great about it, and it's a god send that she no longer has to fight and scrap through service games.

Having said all that, still plenty to work on with it and when I get a chance I'll post a video for you to see.

Cheers

It would be great if you could post her serve. I would be interested to take a look. I am working with a talented girl at the moment. She is a lefty. I am trying to get her to model Navratilova...you know with that nice weight transfer and rhythm.

[mlogarzo]

Hi all,

Been a busy few months, but thought i'd pop in and give you an update on Zoe.

This week, she played the 18s Australian Championships and reached the final, unfortunately not having her best day in the big one. More due to not playing a lot of events this year and having that match toughness.

On another note, her serve as come on in leaps and bounds. She has a nice rhythm going, and developed a solid second serve with some kick. She feels great about it, and it's a god send that she no longer has to fight and scrap through service games.

Having said all that, still plenty to work on with it and when I get a chance I'll post a video for you to see.

Cheers