A New Teaching System: The Serve: Swing Path

[don_budge]

Step by step...the chain reaction

We've been working on her take back, having a better rhythm and more of a lag with bringing the racquet up. Not perfect as yet but much better.

Still more to work on, but taking it step by step.

Results: much better rhythm and has added miles to the serve. Confidence much much higher.

So far so good but long way to go still. Has an ITF in Fiji coming up in 2 weeks so hopefully can put it into practice in more pressure situations.

Yes...step by step. In a motion that is most definitely a chain reaction that is the only way to proceed.

And by all appearances you have done a remarkable job judging from this submission compared to the initial one.

The set up position is just fine...truly classic looking. Look at the beautiful position of the racquet as it is set about six inches forward from where it was before. Her hand is directly over the baseline now and also about three or four inches higher. The center of her sternum is directly over her front foot. Weight distribution 75 percent on the front foot and 25 percent on the back foot...give or take.

From this position the most natural thing to do is let the hands drop together which she accomplishes in a nice relaxed and unified motion...the racquet head simply falls as she begins to redistribute her weight into her back foot. Look how the racquet head is perfectly in line as the weight settles into her back foot. A significant change in cadence compared to the original. All made possible by the beautifully balanced setup position.

She does a beautiful job of maintaining the structure of the racquet and arm position as she maintains the very same position clear to the top of her backswing. She does this with a total absence of tension in her forearm...a very nice fluid backswing. Once at the top the absence of tension is paying big dividends as the racquet falls beautifully behind her without any overt effort on her part. This wonderful free fall of the racquet head is perhaps the key to the whole thing...if you can get in position to where the racquet does what it is supposed to do without any guidance except gravity itself you can say to yourself...mission accomplished.

Coming out of this wonderful relaxed and rhythmic setup, backswing and racquet drop she is great position now to do what she did best of all in her initial swing...she makes a nice athletic launch to the ball with the legs, turning torso and shoulders throwing the racquet head up and over the ball. She maintains a nice position now in the "barrel" or "cylinder".

How do you feel about the pinpoint stance compared to the platform stance mlogarzo? I prefer the platform because there are less moving parts. But this is a really fine looking motion as it is now. The whole thing looks to have been thoroughly thought through in it's entirety, reengineered and retooled. A very intelligent approach to go step by step. Once the initial setup position was corrected she was in perfect position to make a rhythmic backswing and this is one very impressive piece of coaching...if I do say so myself. Awesome!!!

Thanks very much for showing the fruits of your labors. You have done your student a great SERVICE. It's remarkable how much more fluid she appears with this delivery compared to the first sample. The fluidity is commensurate with the level of confidence many times. A machine that is engineered to be friction free naturally performs better than one with friction. You have eliminated much of the friction that was hindering her and possibly playing havoc with her confidence. Not enough can be said of this effort. This service motion has gone from convoluted to fluid.

Just one thing mlogarzo...is it possible to see a view from directly behind her?

[tennis_chiro]

Great Improvement

Hey all,

Been a while since I've been here but thought i'd post an updated vid on my pupil's serve.

We've been working on her take back, having a better rhythm and more of a lag with bringing the racquet up. Not perfect as yet but much better.

Have also tried to get her to turn her body more, tilt her shoulders more in trophy position and have her arm in more of an L shape at top.

Still more to work on, but taking it step by step.

Results: much better rhythm and has added miles to the serve. Confidence much much higher.

So far so good but long way to go still. Has an ITF in Fiji coming up in 2 weeks so hopefully can put it into practice in more pressure situations.

I really like the improvement. Which is the most recent? I prefer the pink shorts shot although I'm assuming the low starting position is because of where the camera started (like d_b, I like that higher starting point), but there looks to me to be a lot better internal shoulder rotation on the pink shorts shot when you look at the position of the racket face on the followthrough. I also felt that that motion was a little more continuous. Tremendous improvement from the pieces she had in the initial video.

I would be trying to get her to "roll up" to the ball a little more as opposed to worrying so much about going out, although that will be a natural result anyway. By "roll up", I mean her whole left side from her left foot straightening up to the contact point almost like rolling up to the hit.

Nice job!

don

[don_budge]

The Rollercoaster...and the serve

sampras motion

I love this yellow line that depicts the trail left by the Pete Sampras service motion. Thanks for this GeoffWilliams.

When talking about rhythm or tempo please take a look at this yellow streak and imagine that it is the track of a rollercoaster. Initially the rollercoaster car starts from a still position and falls down the track with the initial gravitational pull until it starts to ascend up the first hill. Since the car only has so much inertia from the initial descent it will barely make it up to the top of the hill.

Once the car reaches the top of the hill it will come to almost a momentary pause before it falls off the edge down the hill where it comes to a loop in the track. Going into this loop the car has picked up its maximum speed and comes out of the loop as rocket boosters activate to thrust it upwards as if it were slung out of a cannon...attaining maximum speed slightly after impact of the ball.

The backswing and the racquet drop are purely gravity based and the whole time the body is aligning itself in order to coil so as to apply the boosters of the thrusting legs, turning torso and throwing motion of the arm.

Interesting visual! Now we can see this kind of tempo in the swing of mlogarzo's pupil...Zoe. The keys were to get her car (racquet head) lined up correctly initially and then make the free fall drop of the hands and racquet. She had only to maintain her tempo going up the hill to the point where she was on-line to let the car fall behind her. Once there it is a matter of letting everything go sequentially without interfering with the natural impetus of things.

[stotty]

I like this walk-thru by Leif Shiras on Federer's serve.

http://www.tennis.com/your-game/2013/03/great-shots-roger-federers-serve/46695/#.UiO0J2T47BA

[johnyandell]

I like Federer's serve...

[stotty]

Okay all you serving gurus out there, see what you make of this. For ages now I've been banging on about Murray's left arm and how it shoots out so violently at the end of his serve. At this end of this video we get an explanation for that.

The video is 15 minutes long and explains the importance of "saving the coil". It has a side-by-side comparison of Murray and Sampras serving and explains the differences.

http://www.tennisone.com/membership/coursepromo/kickserve/5.servesales.as.php

Anyone got any thoughts on this one?

[mlogarzo]

Hi all,

Been a busy few months, but thought i'd pop in and give you an update on Zoe.

This week, she played the 18s Australian Championships and reached the final, unfortunately not having her best day in the big one. More due to not playing a lot of events this year and having that match toughness.

On another note, her serve as come on in leaps and bounds. She has a nice rhythm going, and developed a solid second serve with some kick. She feels great about it, and it's a god send that she no longer has to fight and scrap through service games.

Having said all that, still plenty to work on with it and when I get a chance I'll post a video for you to see.

Cheers

[stotty]

Hi all,

Been a busy few months, but thought i'd pop in and give you an update on Zoe.

This week, she played the 18s Australian Championships and reached the final, unfortunately not having her best day in the big one. More due to not playing a lot of events this year and having that match toughness.

On another note, her serve as come on in leaps and bounds. She has a nice rhythm going, and developed a solid second serve with some kick. She feels great about it, and it's a god send that she no longer has to fight and scrap through service games.

Having said all that, still plenty to work on with it and when I get a chance I'll post a video for you to see.

Cheers

It would be great if you could post her serve. I would be interested to take a look. I am working with a talented girl at the moment. She is a lefty. I am trying to get her to model Navratilova...you know with that nice weight transfer and rhythm.

[don_budge]

mlogarzo...

Hi all,

Been a busy few months, but thought i'd pop in and give you an update on Zoe.

This week, she played the 18s Australian Championships and reached the final, unfortunately not having her best day in the big one. More due to not playing a lot of events this year and having that match toughness.

On another note, her serve as come on in leaps and bounds. She has a nice rhythm going, and developed a solid second serve with some kick. She feels great about it, and it's a god send that she no longer has to fight and scrap through service games.

Having said all that, still plenty to work on with it and when I get a chance I'll post a video for you to see.

Cheers

Congratulations...you have been a great service to your tennis student. Thanks so much for sharing her with us here on the forum. Truly it was one of the highlights here in recent memory. I am so looking forwards to seeing her progress. What great fun it was to participate in her education. Thanks for the updates. That is so exciting to hear that she is experiencing good results...the finals of the Aussie 18's is elite company. Take care...Mate!

Of course...huge thanks to John for this wonderful series on the classic service motion which made all of this discussion possible. Great food for thought!

[mlogarzo]

Thanks guys, but to be honest it's much easier to get the results when you have a player who will go out on her own and spend hours practicing it.

The most satisfying aspect is that she has developed a good sound solid second serve with a bit of kick. When i started with her it was non-existent. In August at the ITF in Fiji she played a match against No. 50 ITF Junior serving 18 double faults!!! How she won I don't know.

Find below some videos of her serve. They include from side, from behind and her second serve.

[mlogarzo]

2nd serve

[tennis_chiro]

Looks good

Thanks guys, but to be honest it's much easier to get the results when you have a player who will go out on her own and spend hours practicing it.

The most satisfying aspect is that she has developed a good sound solid second serve with a bit of kick. When i started with her it was non-existent. In August at the ITF in Fiji she played a match against No. 50 ITF Junior serving 18 double faults!!! How she won I don't know.

Find below some videos of her serve. They include from side, from behind and her second serve.

I tired to take a quick look at the videos over the course of this thread

original: post #4, 4/11/13
2nd view: post #30, 8/7/13
most recent: post #40, 12/16/13

I like the progression and the way the backswing has gotten smoother and less deliberate. Still think she could get a little more internal rotation getting the racket face to move to vertical (Sampras position) closer to the contact point, while the arm is still extended up. You can also see the angle of the body is improved as she reaches up to contact.

don

[mlogarzo]

Still plenty to work on and only part of the way of where I see it finishing. The internal rotation and contact point as you me mentioned is one, her take back, tossing arm going up sooner, pronation to name a few.

You can have a player spend hours on the practice court perfecting technique but ultimately what will determine progress is whether it stands up in the heat of battle.

All along I've got her to operate on feel. There were times when we worked on something and it felt horrible but she understood that she was doing it correctly and it was supposed to feel 'crap' at first until it became habitual and she got the correct muscle memory. THIS is the point where countless players fail. Because it doesn't feel comfortable or 'right' they don't fully invest in it and give up.

[stotty]

Great improvement...

I think her body rotation and swing path are vastly improved. The swing looks much more fluent and looser at the outset than previously.

I really like the work you've done here. It just shows what you can do with a suspect serve when both coach and student apply themselves. I'm impressed.

[don_budge]

Just one more thing...the footwork

Still plenty to work on and only part of the way of where I see it finishing. The internal rotation and contact point as you me mentioned is one, her take back, tossing arm going up sooner, pronation to name a few.

Actually mlogarzo...it doesn’t have to be so complicated as all of that and I admire your objectivity. I think that the changes in the setup position have had a great influence on the backswing. The backswing looks as if it could have a tremendous influence on the delivery of the racquet head to the ball. In fact it already has. It is starting to take shape...it is starting to look like the real thing. It looks to me as if she is fully prepared to go forwards...in modifying her service technique in order to actualize her full potential as a server of the tennis ball. It is a question of potential...isn't it?

With the improvements that she has made in her setup and her backswing there is one more thing that she needs to address. The footwork. This is the way that I see it as it appears in the video (which are top notch by the way). The pinpoint has to go.

# of clicks into the video...

#13...foot is nearly off of the ground and pivoting backwards from the baseline. evidence of a lateral shift backwards

#32...foot has replanted itself parallel to the baseline, she is now actually standing in a pidgeon-toed stance almost a foot behind the baseline. too much real estate to be giving up. toe the line.

#44...see how the ball has reached it’s apex. go one click backwards to #43 and then go two forwards to #45. see how little the ball is actually moving...it is almost standing still for two or three clicks.

notice the narrow base from which zoe will now make her move to the ball from. the stance suggests a nearly straight upwards launch to the ball with her rotation restricted by the placement of the feet.

#58...she makes contact with the ball and it doesn’t appear that she is quite as extended as she potentially could be. she has left the ground and is airborne...

What is it about her pinpoint stance that encourages her to toss the ball so high and forces her to hit a ball traveling at a much higher rate of speed than if she was making contact with the ball at or near the apex of her toss? What effect does this have on the effectiveness of her serve?

It looks to me that the lateral move backwards is some kind of compensating move to make room for her movement into the pinpoint stance. This kind of movement is totally unnecessary from my point of view. i have never really subscribed or seen the point of the pinpoint stance. Particularly the way in which she assumes it. There is too much starting and stopping and restarting again.

I think that all list of things that need to be “fixed” will naturally be ironed out once she gets into the platform stance. I have made some oblique references in the past about the service motion being something akin to a golf swing. The point about the movement and speed of movement of the ball in the toss sequence is interesting I think. At click #44 the ball has reached it apex and if you click forwards or backwards from this point in time and space you will notice that the ball barely moves. In effect...if your racquet could somehow meet the ball nearer to this point it would have more of the effect of teeing up the ball.


Australian Princess Zoe would probably be somewhat better off making contact with ball if she threw no higher than where the ball is a full 9 or 10 clicks past #44. If she was in a platform stance this is probably the point where it may be most “natural” to meet the ball. Something about the pinpoint stance encourages the server to heave the ball much higher than necessary and as a consequence when the server is swinging at the descending ball it is traveling much faster than if they had timed the contact to be rather at the apex. Just think...if you are the type of server that serves with slice, top, kick and likes to change direction with your placement, shouldn't you be meeting the ball where there are the minimal number of minimized variables going on? Just a thought...beyond mechanics there are tactics.

That business with the front foot retreating from the baseline in her backswing motion is bothersome to my eye. I think that she should toe that line and extend as far as she can into the court to hit the serve. She actually is doing a rather nice of extending in spite of all of the coming and goings. You might want to consider a bit of a dipping move with the chest as the arms and hands drop from the setup position and then lifting the chest up as the arms and hands reach for the sky...while she is turning her shoulders. If you replace this simpler movement for the lateral shifting you might find more potential in her motion still. In fact...I am quite certain of it.

Convincing her to leave the platform stance behind might be the most difficult part of the whole rigamarole. It’s true...the new stance will make her a bit uncomfortable in the beginning but she has demonstrated a willingness to practice plus a willingness to try new things so that won’t be much of a problem if she intellectually accepts the fact that the platform stance is more in line with the laws of metaphysics as they apply to service fundamentals.

The backswing and general overall shape of her swing is so radically improved it doesn’t make sense to swing this new and aesthetically pleasing service motion from anything other than the most solid and stable of platforms available. I would like to see the groundstrokes as well. This young lady seems to have loads of talent and a lot of other attributes that make up a good tennis player as well as a student of the game. There may be loads of potential in this gold mine to be considered. Maybe some net play...even serve and volley! Why not? She’s an Aussie. Remember that song..."Walk Like an Egyptian"...well I would rather serve like an Australian.

It’s a curious move though that she makes with her front foot after the set up position. By moving it backwards she is actually reestablishing her feet to compensate for that lateral move backwards which is actually an intelligent thing to do in an obtuse sort of way. If she leaves her foot where it originally was then she has to once again traverse the terrain back to the original focal point with her back foot. That would be quite a leap of faith. But why not eliminate all of the “comings and goings” altogether.

Lateral movement is the kiss of death in any golf swing. Inexperienced golfers somehow get the notion that this back and forth movement will somehow transfer impetus into the ball but what it does is serve for more difficult timing in returning to the ball. Truly impetus will be more efficiently created with a mere turning of the shoulders.

Golfers know that the way to create more distance or power in their swing is to turn the shoulders more. If they try for more distance they turn more...they don't necessarily try to swing harder. They certainly don't try to rely on lateral movement. Perhaps something about the reverse dynamics of the serve provides more tolerance for such lateral movement but for me it is “bothersome” to my eye. Sometimes bothersome to me is an indication of faulty fundamentals...as much as I believe that it is in this case. But then again...I am a fundamentalist by nature when it comes to teaching tennis.

Fantastic work in the swing department...now the lower body must be working in synchronicity with the swing. You are right when you mentioned that there was still plenty to work on. Endeavors such as golf swings and service motions are life long projects. Even the best servers are tinkering with the swing...even the best golfers are tinkering with their golf swing. It is the nature of the beast. But I believe that all of those issues that you mentioned will be resolved if you convert this young lady to the platform stance. You will be killing umpteen birds with one stone.

Just some “food for thought”...Mate!