A New Teaching System: The Serve: Swing Path

[stotty]

Okay all you serving gurus out there, see what you make of this. For ages now I've been banging on about Murray's left arm and how it shoots out so violently at the end of his serve. At this end of this video we get an explanation for that.

The video is 15 minutes long and explains the importance of "saving the coil". It has a side-by-side comparison of Murray and Sampras serving and explains the differences.

http://www.tennisone.com/membership/coursepromo/kickserve/5.servesales.as.php

Anyone got any thoughts on this one?

[johnyandell]

I like Federer's serve...

[stotty]

I like this walk-thru by Leif Shiras on Federer's serve.

http://www.tennis.com/your-game/2013/03/great-shots-roger-federers-serve/46695/#.UiO0J2T47BA

[don_budge]

The Rollercoaster...and the serve

sampras motion

I love this yellow line that depicts the trail left by the Pete Sampras service motion. Thanks for this GeoffWilliams.

When talking about rhythm or tempo please take a look at this yellow streak and imagine that it is the track of a rollercoaster. Initially the rollercoaster car starts from a still position and falls down the track with the initial gravitational pull until it starts to ascend up the first hill. Since the car only has so much inertia from the initial descent it will barely make it up to the top of the hill.

Once the car reaches the top of the hill it will come to almost a momentary pause before it falls off the edge down the hill where it comes to a loop in the track. Going into this loop the car has picked up its maximum speed and comes out of the loop as rocket boosters activate to thrust it upwards as if it were slung out of a cannon...attaining maximum speed slightly after impact of the ball.

The backswing and the racquet drop are purely gravity based and the whole time the body is aligning itself in order to coil so as to apply the boosters of the thrusting legs, turning torso and throwing motion of the arm.

Interesting visual! Now we can see this kind of tempo in the swing of mlogarzo's pupil...Zoe. The keys were to get her car (racquet head) lined up correctly initially and then make the free fall drop of the hands and racquet. She had only to maintain her tempo going up the hill to the point where she was on-line to let the car fall behind her. Once there it is a matter of letting everything go sequentially without interfering with the natural impetus of things.

[tennis_chiro]

Great Improvement

Hey all,

Been a while since I've been here but thought i'd post an updated vid on my pupil's serve.

We've been working on her take back, having a better rhythm and more of a lag with bringing the racquet up. Not perfect as yet but much better.

Have also tried to get her to turn her body more, tilt her shoulders more in trophy position and have her arm in more of an L shape at top.

Still more to work on, but taking it step by step.

Results: much better rhythm and has added miles to the serve. Confidence much much higher.

So far so good but long way to go still. Has an ITF in Fiji coming up in 2 weeks so hopefully can put it into practice in more pressure situations.

I really like the improvement. Which is the most recent? I prefer the pink shorts shot although I'm assuming the low starting position is because of where the camera started (like d_b, I like that higher starting point), but there looks to me to be a lot better internal shoulder rotation on the pink shorts shot when you look at the position of the racket face on the followthrough. I also felt that that motion was a little more continuous. Tremendous improvement from the pieces she had in the initial video.

I would be trying to get her to "roll up" to the ball a little more as opposed to worrying so much about going out, although that will be a natural result anyway. By "roll up", I mean her whole left side from her left foot straightening up to the contact point almost like rolling up to the hit.

Nice job!

don

[don_budge]

Step by step...the chain reaction

We've been working on her take back, having a better rhythm and more of a lag with bringing the racquet up. Not perfect as yet but much better.

Still more to work on, but taking it step by step.

Results: much better rhythm and has added miles to the serve. Confidence much much higher.

So far so good but long way to go still. Has an ITF in Fiji coming up in 2 weeks so hopefully can put it into practice in more pressure situations.

Yes...step by step. In a motion that is most definitely a chain reaction that is the only way to proceed.

And by all appearances you have done a remarkable job judging from this submission compared to the initial one.

The set up position is just fine...truly classic looking. Look at the beautiful position of the racquet as it is set about six inches forward from where it was before. Her hand is directly over the baseline now and also about three or four inches higher. The center of her sternum is directly over her front foot. Weight distribution 75 percent on the front foot and 25 percent on the back foot...give or take.

From this position the most natural thing to do is let the hands drop together which she accomplishes in a nice relaxed and unified motion...the racquet head simply falls as she begins to redistribute her weight into her back foot. Look how the racquet head is perfectly in line as the weight settles into her back foot. A significant change in cadence compared to the original. All made possible by the beautifully balanced setup position.

She does a beautiful job of maintaining the structure of the racquet and arm position as she maintains the very same position clear to the top of her backswing. She does this with a total absence of tension in her forearm...a very nice fluid backswing. Once at the top the absence of tension is paying big dividends as the racquet falls beautifully behind her without any overt effort on her part. This wonderful free fall of the racquet head is perhaps the key to the whole thing...if you can get in position to where the racquet does what it is supposed to do without any guidance except gravity itself you can say to yourself...mission accomplished.

Coming out of this wonderful relaxed and rhythmic setup, backswing and racquet drop she is great position now to do what she did best of all in her initial swing...she makes a nice athletic launch to the ball with the legs, turning torso and shoulders throwing the racquet head up and over the ball. She maintains a nice position now in the "barrel" or "cylinder".

How do you feel about the pinpoint stance compared to the platform stance mlogarzo? I prefer the platform because there are less moving parts. But this is a really fine looking motion as it is now. The whole thing looks to have been thoroughly thought through in it's entirety, reengineered and retooled. A very intelligent approach to go step by step. Once the initial setup position was corrected she was in perfect position to make a rhythmic backswing and this is one very impressive piece of coaching...if I do say so myself. Awesome!!!

Thanks very much for showing the fruits of your labors. You have done your student a great SERVICE. It's remarkable how much more fluid she appears with this delivery compared to the first sample. The fluidity is commensurate with the level of confidence many times. A machine that is engineered to be friction free naturally performs better than one with friction. You have eliminated much of the friction that was hindering her and possibly playing havoc with her confidence. Not enough can be said of this effort. This service motion has gone from convoluted to fluid.

Just one thing mlogarzo...is it possible to see a view from directly behind her?

[mlogarzo]

Hey all,

Been a while since I've been here but thought i'd post an updated vid on my pupil's serve.

We've been working on her take back, having a better rhythm and more of a lag with bringing the racquet up. Not perfect as yet but much better.

Have also tried to get her to turn her body more, tilt her shoulders more in trophy position and have her arm in more of an L shape at top.

Still more to work on, but taking it step by step.

Results: much better rhythm and has added miles to the serve. Confidence much much higher.

So far so good but long way to go still. Has an ITF in Fiji coming up in 2 weeks so hopefully can put it into practice in more pressure situations.

[10splayer]

I agree with much of don_budge’s critique of the girl’s serve. Her problems start at the start.

I like don_budge’s approach to serving very much, and coaching in general. My only concern is that not all students can achieve a “classic” serve. Some cats have to skinned another way. I have a friend like don_budge. He’s 74 years old. He’s not interested in science because he says he knows a great stroke from a bad stroke, and it’s mechanics, when he sees it. Like don_budge he has unique views and an unshakeable belief in his opinions. He’s an excellent coach and a man to respect I might add...like d_b.

I think this thread has shown a lot. That we all see different things in the same thing. Look at all the different observations on the girl’s serve. But all this epitomizes what I like about Brian Gordon’s and others more scientific approach. Biomechanics gets to the facts. Okay, it may miss the nuances and the artistic side of the game...but you can’t have everything.

The biomechanical study of players is interesting and goes beyond observing with the naked eye and the misinterpretations that often come with it. Brian Gordon’s articles on Tennisplayer are exceptionally good. His articles on the ATP forehand are the finest coaching articles I have ever read. I felt completely ignorant after reading them for the first time. Many reads later I feel enlightened.

The more I surf Tennisplayer and interact with people in the forum, the more I am coming to the conclusion that coaching technique is mostly about checkpoints...making positions...trying to ensure fluency between those checkpoints. Individual style will spring up whether we like it or not.

I think 10splayer is an impressive coach. He doesn’t post as much or as long as some of us but when he does it has real content. It’s weighty stuff...always concise and to the point. He understands biomechanics. He’s enlightened me and others many times. I respect him and his knowledge of tennis technique a lot.

Agree in totality. Basic positions, shapes, are fundamentals in my book. A player can run with it from there. Provided a player adheres to these basic positions, (in the macro sense) I care not whether they add there own personal touch/flair to it. In fact, it's a good thing IMO.

[10splayer]

Yeah...it's ok 10splayer. It's no idea to sully this website with retorts or accusations. I will for my part try to be clear...for all of my sense of irony and clever double intendres complete with acerbic and sardonic wit it feels good to clear the air without any sense of vindictiveness...which is something that I have a hard time feeling after taking some deep breaths. I have a somewhat bad temper myself, mostly I either get mad at myself or my wife...owing to my Latin roots perhaps. But I am learning. So here are the facts...since you brought it up.

First of all with regards to my feelings about DougEng. I don't have any. I know that he is a Phd and I have read every single post that he has written since I started posting here back in February of 2011. That being said I have read every single post that you have written too...in fact I have read every single post. My feelings about the posts of DougEng? I feel that he and I are sort of diametrically opposed as to how we interpret the game of tennis...which is quite ok by me and I am quite certain that he feels the exact same way about me.

As far as his having forgotten more tennis than I ever knew. I suppose that is possible...well I always say to my wife that I am on a need to know basis. It's very possible he has forgotten as much. I know another thing about DougEng...he is a highly respected contributor here on the forum as a number of posters have made it a point to voice their respect for him. If we had an election he may be voted the supreme commanding coach of the site...I don't know. Stotty sort of nominated him for that in a post recently...I think. So you are not alone in your reading DougEng's posts. We all read him. I already answered your comment about getting over myself...and I thought my comment was extremely witty and just a little mystifying. Didn't you? Probably not. I probably only annoyed you. Ok...maybe I was trying to. Just a little bit.

So now I must answer to your comment about my comment being a ridiculous cheap shot. Here is the sequence of events that led me to make that comment.

First I used the word "convoluted" which julian1 sort of highlighted in his comment. Now julian1 and I have taken some light "shots" at each other in the past but I have always taken it in good nature as sort of a kidding or sparring between us. He largely ignores me now...we have traded emails in the past. I always welcome his comments though and find him to be amusing...most of the time. You can read in julian1's comment that he recommends consulting in DougEng...and I sort of read into that to bypass over me...as if I might not be qualified to answer any questions about the young ladies serve. Shouldn't any tennis coach or teacher or metaphysical engineer not be able to weigh in on something so simple as a service motion? Afterall, it is not rocket science and there is no clear prerequisite for a Phd as far as I know. I sort of took that as a bit of a challenge from julian1 and proceeded to write my analysis...with vigor. But this is how DougEng's name came up in the conversation.




So I followed up with my analysis and at the end in an attempt to inject a little ironic humor...plus a little entertainment for the readership here, I replied to julian1. What i said is not a "ridiculous cheap shot" and it certainly was not intended to be. Maybe it could have been construed as a left handed compliment...which it wasn't my intention. What it was...was an acknowledgement that DougEng probably knows at least as much about tennis as I do...or at least he thinks he does...and I said as much. I said that DougEng would probably say virtually the same thing...only he would make it sound more like a mathematical equation whereas my method is to try and paint a picture with my words. I am a "bottle" wannabe...in a way. In my own way...that is. I was also poking fun at the two...julian2 and DougEng by the comment that they are comfortable with each others language seeing as they are both Phd's. This may be a reasonable assumption in the end.






In the end 10splayer...I am doing as much with you. We are just playing around a bit and to tell you the truth I don't take your comment so seriously...because believe it or not I don't take myself so seriously. I figure we are both spin doctors and I spin to you...you spin to me. Perhaps we are not so far apart afterall. I have written well over 1,000 posts here on the forum and it amounts to over 1,500 pages of material. I know that because I have assembled much of it into a book which I intend to publish posthumously and posthumorously...just for the bloody fun of it.

But I truly appreciate your comments 10splayer because I believe in freedom of expression. I might not agree with what you say...but I will defend to the death your right to say it. I hope that this clears the air...just a tiny bit.

Peace be with you...and I am truly sorry if anything that I write offends you. I trust that you will get over it though. By the way...what did you think of my Zoe serve analysis? Just curious.

Fair enough DB. Thanks LC and Stroke.

[stroke]

I think 10splayer is an impressive coach. He doesn’t post as much or as long as some of us but when he does it has real content. It’s weighty stuff...always concise and to the point. He understands biomechanics. He’s enlightened me and others many times. I respect him and his knowledge of tennis technique a lot.
__________________
Stotty


I agree completely with Stotty regarding 10splayer. Concise and weighty stuff pretty much says it all. Even Brian Gordon called him out on some thread we had going as "getting it". Now that's weighty stuff.

[stotty]

d_b, BG, and 10splayer

I agree with much of don_budge’s critique of the girl’s serve. Her problems start at the start.

I like don_budge’s approach to serving very much, and coaching in general. My only concern is that not all students can achieve a “classic” serve. Some cats have to skinned another way. I have a friend like don_budge. He’s 74 years old. He’s not interested in science because he says he knows a great stroke from a bad stroke, and it’s mechanics, when he sees it. Like don_budge he has unique views and an unshakeable belief in his opinions. He’s an excellent coach and a man to respect I might add...like d_b.

I think this thread has shown a lot. That we all see different things in the same thing. Look at all the different observations on the girl’s serve. But all this epitomizes what I like about Brian Gordon’s and others more scientific approach. Biomechanics gets to the facts. Okay, it may miss the nuances and the artistic side of the game...but you can’t have everything.

The biomechanical study of players is interesting and goes beyond observing with the naked eye and the misinterpretations that often come with it. Brian Gordon’s articles on Tennisplayer are exceptionally good. His articles on the ATP forehand are the finest coaching articles I have ever read. I felt completely ignorant after reading them for the first time. Many reads later I feel enlightened.

The more I surf Tennisplayer and interact with people in the forum, the more I am coming to the conclusion that coaching technique is mostly about checkpoints...making positions...trying to ensure fluency between those checkpoints. Individual style will spring up whether we like it or not.

I think 10splayer is an impressive coach. He doesn’t post as much or as long as some of us but when he does it has real content. It’s weighty stuff...always concise and to the point. He understands biomechanics. He’s enlightened me and others many times. I respect him and his knowledge of tennis technique a lot.

[don_budge]

Cheap Shot Artist...DougEng the Victim? It's all in the game.

there's really no need for this. Doug has forgotten more about tennis than you know. Really. I enjoy his posts and think this is a ridiculous cheap shot. Get over yourself.

Btw, I'll take empirical, gadgets, etc. over song lyrics any day.

Yeah...it's ok 10splayer. It's no idea to sully this website with retorts or accusations. I will for my part try to be clear...for all of my sense of irony and clever double intendres complete with acerbic and sardonic wit it feels good to clear the air without any sense of vindictiveness...which is something that I have a hard time feeling after taking some deep breaths. I have a somewhat bad temper myself, mostly I either get mad at myself or my wife...owing to my Latin roots perhaps. But I am learning. So here are the facts...since you brought it up.

First of all with regards to my feelings about DougEng. I don't have any. I know that he is a Phd and I have read every single post that he has written since I started posting here back in February of 2011. That being said I have read every single post that you have written too...in fact I have read every single post. My feelings about the posts of DougEng? I feel that he and I are sort of diametrically opposed as to how we interpret the game of tennis...which is quite ok by me and I am quite certain that he feels the exact same way about me.

As far as his having forgotten more tennis than I ever knew. I suppose that is possible...well I always say to my wife that I am on a need to know basis. It's very possible he has forgotten as much. I know another thing about DougEng...he is a highly respected contributor here on the forum as a number of posters have made it a point to voice their respect for him. If we had an election he may be voted the supreme commanding coach of the site...I don't know. Stotty sort of nominated him for that in a post recently...I think. So you are not alone in your reading DougEng's posts. We all read him. I already answered your comment about getting over myself...and I thought my comment was extremely witty and just a little mystifying. Didn't you? Probably not. I probably only annoyed you. Ok...maybe I was trying to. Just a little bit.

So now I must answer to your comment about my comment being a ridiculous cheap shot. Here is the sequence of events that led me to make that comment.

First I used the word "convoluted" which julian1 sort of highlighted in his comment. Now julian1 and I have taken some light "shots" at each other in the past but I have always taken it in good nature as sort of a kidding or sparring between us. He largely ignores me now...we have traded emails in the past. I always welcome his comments though and find him to be amusing...most of the time. You can read in julian1's comment that he recommends consulting in DougEng...and I sort of read into that to bypass over me...as if I might not be qualified to answer any questions about the young ladies serve. Shouldn't any tennis coach or teacher or metaphysical engineer not be able to weigh in on something so simple as a service motion? Afterall, it is not rocket science and there is no clear prerequisite for a Phd as far as I know. I sort of took that as a bit of a challenge from julian1 and proceeded to write my analysis...with vigor. But this is how DougEng's name came up in the conversation.

PS One of reasons that the toss is of Zoe is so high is that she needs
enough time to get into a significant vertical drop and back.
Whether it is "CONVOLUTED" is a matter of opinion
(see the corresponding post by don_budge on this subject)
Doug Eng is a very good person to talk about this subject

So I followed up with my analysis and at the end in an attempt to inject a little ironic humor...plus a little entertainment for the readership here, I replied to julian1. What i said is not a "ridiculous cheap shot" and it certainly was not intended to be. Maybe it could have been construed as a left handed compliment...which it wasn't my intention. What it was...was an acknowledgement that DougEng probably knows at least as much about tennis as I do...or at least he thinks he does...and I said as much. I said that DougEng would probably say virtually the same thing...only he would make it sound more like a mathematical equation whereas my method is to try and paint a picture with my words. I am a "bottle" wannabe...in a way. In my own way...that is. I was also poking fun at the two...julian2 and DougEng by the comment that they are comfortable with each others language seeing as they are both Phd's. This may be a reasonable assumption in the end.

julian1

Go ahead julian1...call in DougEng. Call the police while you are at it. You probably will feel more secure hearing virtually the same thing from him in twice the words and more scientific lingo. He'll throw in some gadgets and computer generated lines for good measure. Birds of a feather flock together and as fellow Phd’s you can probably find great solace in one another. Which makes me happy to no end. Trust me.

Stotty...

Thank you.

there's really no need for this. Doug has forgotten more about tennis than you know. Really. I enjoy his posts and think this is a ridiculous cheap shot. Get over yourself.

Btw, I'll take empirical, gadgets, etc. over song lyrics any day.

In the end 10splayer...I am doing as much with you. We are just playing around a bit and to tell you the truth I don't take your comment so seriously...because believe it or not I don't take myself so seriously. I figure we are both spin doctors and I spin to you...you spin to me. Perhaps we are not so far apart afterall. I have written well over 1,000 posts here on the forum and it amounts to over 1,500 pages of material. I know that because I have assembled much of it into a book which I intend to publish posthumously and posthumorously...just for the bloody fun of it.

But I truly appreciate your comments 10splayer because I believe in freedom of expression. I might not agree with what you say...but I will defend to the death your right to say it. I hope that this clears the air...just a tiny bit.

Peace be with you...and I am truly sorry if anything that I write offends you. I trust that you will get over it though. By the way...what did you think of my Zoe serve analysis? Just curious.

[don_budge]

Sorry to keep you waiting...10splayer

there's really no need for this. Doug has forgotten more about tennis than you know. Really. I enjoy his posts and think this is a ridiculous cheap shot. Get over yourself.

Btw, I'll take empirical, gadgets, etc. over song lyrics any day.

Sorry to keep you waiting...10splayer. It wasn't my intention as that would be gamesmanship. Alright...I think the pause serves it's purpose. An acute sense of timing is not lost on me. Dramatic timing. McEnroe was a wizard at it. But in the end it's a good idea to think before you speak...especially in public where you might make a fool of yourself should you make some sort of blunder or foolish comment.

But anyways, I was out of town and away from my keyboard...I had to go and see a man about a dog. But here I am and I would really like to respond to your post here...afterall it is a forum. This is the way this thing works...as I recollect you advising someone a while back. I think it was bottle...my friend bottle...aka John Escher.

But anyways...that wasn't a "ridiculous cheap shot" at Doug. I am going to address your comment a little later in another post..after I have had a chance to unpack. You might want to reread my comment in the meantime. I will accept your apology and refrain from making further comment about your comment if you do so. I don't expect that to happen either...I think that monkey's may fly out of my butt first before a proud individual such as "yourself" would apologize for being so righteous. In the meantime...I am measuring my words to minimize the damage...damage control. For your sake.

But please tell me 10splayer...did you even read my analysis of the Aussie Princess Zoe's serve? If so...what did you think? In my estimation it was quite brilliant but it is hard to be objective about one's self, particularly when one is making a great effort to be perfect. To be a perfectionist. Isn't that what a tennis player aspires to? And the coach...isn't that what they do to enable the player to achieve that goal. At least to approach their limits. I worked particularly hard on my analysis for Zoe and watched her motion many, many times...just hoping for the chance to be of some service to a young student of the game. There are no ulterior motives here...except for trying to improve myself by helping others...just a tiny bit every day. It all adds up you know.

It is a tough road to hoe...especially if one finds it difficult to get over one's self. And just who doesn't find it hard to get over one's self btw (by the way)? Afterall if you get over yourself...who are you? Nobody...or somebody else?

But first things first...what did you think? Of the serve analysis? Then we can address your comment...and your issues.

I am curious to death if mlogarzo will find any merit in any of my analysis as well when he begins to knuckle down on the service technique of Zoe...the Australian 16 and under clay court champion. Big congratulations on that and the rest of the program...mlogarzo. Very impressive stuff!

I would love to see your service motion too, mlogarzo...perhaps I might see just a little something that might help you out just a bit. Afterall...that is what I do. I am a tennis coach, or rather a metaphysical engineer, who likes to help...wherever I go. Wherever I might be. It just so turned out that I was able to help this man out about his dog. But particularly when it comes to perfecting service techniques in aspiring tennis players. It is sort of a lost art...and something that I do. Just "for the bloody fun of it"!

[mlogarzo]

Guys,

Thanks for your responses and feedback on your opinions. The beauty of tennis is that everyone sees things differently and as such your thoughts are all welcome.

I've been flat out with work at the moment so haven't had a real chance to sit down and write a longer post but will do so as soon as I get a chance.

Funnily enough since i posted that video, she went out and won the 16s Clay court Nationals not losing more than 3 games in any match. As for her serve, she was serving a high percentage of first serves in, serving a lot bigger and felt a lot better about her serve. Would love to say it was something technical, but it was totally her mental approach to the serve. Having only just started working with her for 3 weeks and in middle of tournaments, i worked on her mind and thought processes and they seemed to make a big difference.

Having said that though, there are definitely things we will be working on to improve the serve. As coaches, it's also very important to be aware of where the serve has come from. The video i posted was the serve as I saw it for the first time. What I haven't seen is where the serve was 12 months prior. I've been made aware that corrections have been made eg. her elbow position in trophy position was very very low. As i get the knuckle down into her game when the tournaments are over I'll discover more and where she's come from and set goals for the future.

Perhaps I should put my serve up and you can all critique away!!!


John,

Good to be in touch again. I'm well. back in Australia now, started my own Tennis Academy for the biggest sporting club in Australia, and things all going well. Will be in the US in the summer. I think my arm is still recovering from all the kick serves we hit that day for the article!!!

[10splayer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4-w2FYIJbw

I think it's sweet how you defend your buddy DB. BTW, is the release date of this song when you first started changing your serve?