Learning from pros is great, but there are far better options.

[nikae]

Pro players do a lot of good stuff that John and others mention in their articles.
Things that we, club players, should copy, they do really good, like full body turns, getting left arm stretched when the ball bounces, setting the hitting arm at the bottom of the back swing, full extension (for forehand that is) and so on. Same for other strokes too.

But, the huge problem is that pro players do a lot of stuff what we, club players, shot not do, not even think about it, like heavy windshield wipers and other more advanced technique, very offensive baseline game....

Since tennis is a visual learning game, shouldn't we be watching and modeling our game on some non-pro players, like, I don't know, some lower level players, maybe college players, John Yandells or other coaches from this site students?

Like, I found a match of Jeff Greenwald and its perfect example of what I am trying to say. He plays a toned down version of today's professional tennis, perfect stuff for us, low lever players!

If what I'm trying to say makes sense, I still have another problem, and that's where to find a material that we need? I am talking about videos of course, like the match of Jeff Greenwald that I found on internet.

[bottle]

Why not do it all?

[nikae]

Why not do it all?

Still the problem stands, I can not find any videos of good-to-model non-pro players, that's why I am posting and asking for help to find some.

[blake_b]

How about the following articles by Scott Murphy about Karsten Popp's classic strokes? They contain slow motion video.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...onal_forehand/

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...nded_backhand/

Blake

[johnyandell]

Right or any of the classic lessons from Scott or from Kerry Mitchell. Or Brent Abel.

The point is valid and not at the same time. Many pro elements are applicable and the top players are the best models. Others are not or are situational. If you read the Advanced Tennis articles closely this is always referenced.

But part of my new series is to identify what players can do at all levels using the pros and other models. One of the dangers of this site is to assume because we are displaying and studying pro technique that means we think it is applicable for all players at all times. Not so.

[stotty]

A tip from Pancho

"Too many players on all levels are unrealistic about their own games. Before working out an elaborate tactical plan relative to your opponent's game, analyze your own game in order to cover up or correct weaknesses and to display your full strength".
- Pancho Gonzales

[johnyandell]

Yes a tip that would require self-awareness to implement...

[stotty]

A tip from Borg

"...the first thing I did in tennis was wrong according to all the teaching pros. I used the western forehand grip with a closed racquet face which everyone said was too "wristy" and unreliable. I was told that no modern champion uses the western grip, and there was a lot of advice in the beginning to change to a more accepted approach. Well, it's become my best shot. I'm glad I didn't listen.

The point is that tennis is a highly personalized game. You should do what seems to work for you, rather than be regimented into a lock-step stroke that may be safe and easy to teach, but does not allow your possibly unique talent to emerge." - BJORN BORG

[bottle]

Wow!

[don_budge]

There are many options...leave no stone unturned!

Since tennis is a visual learning game, shouldn't we be watching and modeling our game on some non-pro players, like, I don't know, some lower level players, maybe college players, John Yandells or other coaches from this site students?

Like, I found a match of Jeff Greenwald and its perfect example of what I am trying to say. He plays a toned down version of today's professional tennis, perfect stuff for us, low lever players!

If what I'm trying to say makes sense, I still have another problem, and that's where to find a material that we need? I am talking about videos of course, like the match of Jeff Greenwald that I found on internet.

nikae...I am not saying for certain that tennis is not a visual learning game...but what I am saying is it isn't a visual learning game.

Ok...there are certain aspects that one can glean from watching tennis. One can be aware of different styles or approaches to hitting the ball. But in the end what does that matter? It is you that still has to go out and play the game. It is you that in the end must end up being your coach...your very own personal coach. It is you that must know your game and what is good about it and what needs improving. You must understand your relative strengths and weaknesses. Mere mimicking is not going to accomplish what needs to be done.

Now in order to fully understand the process you must learn the game in a number of different ways and one of them is watching...but I would be rather careful as to how much I truly mimicked from what I see. As you obviously understand it is futile for players such as yourself to go out and try to copy what the professionals do because their games are way beyond the fundamental stage...although at some point their games were more than likely built upon fundamentals or somebodies perception of fundamentals. Recently I have begun to use the term "fundamentally correct". FC.

We have talked about the lack of competent coaching in your neck of the woods and that is a shame. But it isn't the end of the world. Fundamentals have not changed one iota since Bill Tilden wrote about the game. Early on in tennis history he wrote the book on tennis. You would be well advised to read two books that he wrote ages ago. The titles are "How to Play Better Tennis...a complete guide to technique and tactics” and the Bible of the great Australian legacy including the coach of my model, Harry Hopman, “Match Play and the Spin of the Ball”. Watching is of course one way to learn the game...but it is indeed a strange game and to discover some of the more subtle aspects of it one needs to contemplate and be thoughtful. You must understand what the professional players are doing as well as why they are doing it. This is how you separate the pretenders from the real thing. By becoming a real student of the game and developing the ability to discern.

This website is a start but the reality of the situation is to become more and more aware of as much knowledge out there but to have the ability to discern what is important for you at your level of the game and what is beyond your scope at the present time. The fact that you are asking these questions are a sign of a genuine interest in tennis so get going...start studying. Begin with the fundamentals and never stray from that path is my advise.

It’s a rather long story and one worth pursuing. But to believe that all that one has to do is watch videos is becoming more and more a common mistake when choosing a path. You will be surprised how much can be accomplished by reverting back to fundamentals. Jeff Greenwald did much the same in retooling his game when he went to a coach from the classic era of tennis who steered him back to a fundamentally correct path. Your observations are on the money...nikae.

Once you are armed with a set of fundamental principles, beliefs and practices it is time to get out and discover the game in the only true way that it can be discovered and that is through trial and error. Find out what works for you. Play...and play some more. Research, decide and implement. A good coach can be very helpful in this regard. He can be much more helpful than merely passively watching electronically generated images. It is a game of engagement...engagement of the total of ones self. Physically, emotionally and spiritually. Throw in intellectually too. It is a process...a learning process and nothing beats having a good teacher. An engaging teacher. A good engaging teacher teaches you to be a good student...and there lies the path to being a good teacher. Being a good student...and all points in between. Learn to connect the three dots until you have the capacity to connect all 365. It takes a good year of hard work and critical thinking to accomplish anything of significance. Study hard...and practice.

After you play you must contemplate upon what you are doing good and what you are doing not so good. Go and take a look in the mirror with your racquet. Examine the movements that go into each and every shot. Fundamental number one is keep the racquet head on the path of the ball for as long as possible. Go back and practice and make adjustments. Go back to the mirror. Reevaluate. It is an infinite process. Roger Federer still poses in front of the mirror looking for more discovery.

Much of the modern game of tennis is not a good example for beginners. Take the ATP forehand for example. I don’t necessarily believe in it even though many of the ATP players use it. That action of the wrist has too many variables in it. This technique is only made possible because of a number of engineering factors that have been changed in the game and those factors could easily be changed again. And they should. The game has been engineered in a dreadfully boring manner. Fundamentally this forehand looks to be suspect...particularly in the hands of an amateur. It is a game of repetitive motions and you must find the motions that most often can be repeated under any and all conditions.

[nikae]

Thats a huge post, thanks don_budge . Going to take me a bit to understand what you wrote, hehe.

In the mean time, this is basicly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQ4ZRVp4fc what you want me to look like, right?

[don_budge]

Know the score...and stay humble.

Thats a huge post, thanks don_budge . Going to take me a bit to understand what you wrote, hehe.

In the mean time, this is basicly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQ4ZRVp4fc what you want me to look like, right?

Great nikae...you understand a bit more than you know. Actually what I would like to see is...what you look like hitting against this "tennis machine". There in lies the story. I want to see how your game reacts to his game. Then we get down to the business of what you should look like...and therefore what the path going forwards looks like for YOU.

It is a huge story...the education of a tennis player and my post was actually very minuscule and minimalist. You see...I am humble. And I know the score. A dangerous combination.

Tilden has a chapter in his book about how to play the score in a tennis match by the way. A truly fascinating subject. Carry on...soldier!!!

[jbill]

Well said.

That's a great post don_budge! I don't think anyone can say it better! Wonderful suggestions and advice!

Jim Bill

[don_budge]

The Tennis Student...

That's a great post don_budge! I don't think anyone can say it better! Wonderful suggestions and advice!

Jim Bill

At times there is no more rewarding job than trying to get the tennis student pointed in the right direction. At other times it can be a difficult proposition...and downright frustrating.

But when they make a break through...any old break through can do. My heart leaps in my chest with pride and satisfaction...as well as hope for them. It is a beautiful thing to revel in the success and accomplishments of others if you have been blessed to have had a hand in it.

One thing here about our man nikae...he doesn't quit and he doesn't give up. Perhaps the most singular important prerequisite in the makeup of a tennis player.

Many thanks jbill...Jim Bill. It was very kind of you to say so.

I wonder jbill if you have read the chapter that I am referring to in Tilden's book..."How to Play Better Tennis: a complete guide to technique and tactics", chapter #16 is Maintaining Pressure on Your Opponent, perhaps the best single chapter I have ever read about the game of tennis. It is absolute must reading for any tennis coach, tennis player or tennis student.

[don_budge]

From Bill Tilden..."How to Play Better Tennis..."

From the Book on Tennis...Bill Tilden

Maintaining Pressure on Your Opponent

The habit of establishing and holding pressure on a tennis adversary will pay big dividends. So many players bear down only in fits and starts. An early lead will give many a player a sense of false security and cause him to let up when actually he has nothing more than a slight advantage due to his opponent’s starting slowly. The match actually has not yet begun. The letup may be fatal because once a man has relaxed his pressure and let his opponent get started he often finds it impossible to lift his game again and stop him. The place where most players are likely to throw away matches is about the middle of the second set in a two out of three set match. A man has taken the first set and leads at perhaps 3-1 or 4-2 and decides that the match is as good as over. He stops concentrating, plays carelessly for a few moments and before he realizes it he has lost his service. His opponent holds his service and the game score is tied, but now the man who led a few short minutes ago senses his danger and starts thinking how foolish he was to let up on the pressure. The other man is buoyed up by the reprieve, senses his opponent’s uncertainty and it apt to break through the first man’s service again and run out the set. If he does, the entire complexion of the match is changed. Now the strain is on the man who threw away the lead and unless he has a remarkably good match temperament he is likely to blow up and throw away the third and deciding set. Until you have won the last point of a match, there is no time when you are completely out of danger, if you let up. I know this only too well from many sad personal experiences. I cannot too strongly stress the absolute necessity of concentrating and keeping the pressure on, no matter how big your lead, or how helpless your opponent may appear. Win first, and then be sympathetic. Don’t get sorry for him too soon or you may wind up being sorry for yourself.

This leads right into one of the most intricate aspects in the study of tennis, but one which is of inestimable value to the person who really appreciates it and plays with it always in mind.



Then the chapter progresses into Playing the Score which is a fascinating explanation how to play a match by the score and what each point means to each player. If you or anyone likes I can continue to type out this fascinating piece of tennis literature.