Serve Question for Doug

[johnyandell]

Is there some ITF teaching protocol favoring the pinpoint stance? A dad I know has a daughter and the coach is trying to move her, age 15 with a sectional ranking in top 15, off the platform to pinpoint using Sharapova as a model. Sounds crazy but he claims he is following an established ITF protocol.

Any info or thoughts?

[DougEng]

Is there some ITF teaching protocol favoring the pinpoint stance? A dad I know has a daughter and the coach is trying to move her, age 15 with a sectional ranking in top 15, off the platform to pinpoint using Sharapova as a model. Sounds crazy but he claims he is following an established ITF protocol.

Any info or thoughts?

None, that I have heard of. Generally ITF (and others) are now using terminology: foot up or foot back for pinpoint and platform, respectively.
Perhaps it is a personal interpretation of ITF developmental phases.

There are coaching (and I believe former playing) competencies which are a set of recommendations but specific technical descriptions such as this are not mandatory protocol. Normally they specify things like: player is able to execute topspin and slice serves. Player is able to use open and semi-open stances, etc.

[johnyandell]

Thanks a lot. The dad will be happy because the coach was beating him up with this!

[DougEng]

Thanks a lot. The dad will be happy because the coach was beating him up with this!

You can always check with ITF, e.g, Crespo, directly but I'm 99% sure it doesn't exist. Rather I'm certain ITF education accepts both foot up and back as reasonable technique. Another case is toss into the court or to the side (baseline) are two other examples of reasonable technical variations. Of course, for a heavy serve, it's foot back and toss to the side maximizes spin, given all else equal.

[johnyandell]

No that makes perfect sense. This coach also thinks Sharapova is the model but doesn't even have her right because he is advocating an extreme bow with the tossing arm literally back over the head at extension of motion...

Yet he admits he never looked at her motion on video. He's a great guy I have known off and on for years, but it never ceases to amaze me how little effort former players put into forming their opinions when they become teachers.

BTW for a 16 yr old girl do you think a conservative platform is viable? This touches on the big question of why the pinpoint dominates among the women. I know this also relates to the studies Ben and you and Todd have done of women's tour players. Thoughts??

[DougEng]

No that makes perfect sense. This coach also thinks Sharapova is the model but doesn't even have her right because he is advocating an extreme bow with the tossing arm literally back over the head at extension of motion...

Yet he admits he never looked at her motion on video. He's a great guy I have known off and on for years, but it never ceases to amaze me how little effort former players put into forming their opinions when they become teachers.

BTW for a 16 yr old girl do you think a conservative platform is viable? This touches on the big question of why the pinpoint dominates among the women. I know this also relates to the studies Ben and you and Todd have done of women's tour players. Thoughts??

Ben is primarily doing the study. I think Todd participates but I believe it's 3-4 on the WTA/ATP player services staff (trainers) since they are trained for qualitatitive analysis from an injury point of view. It's really not complex but looking for basically key elements. Hopefully Ben will have an article for you soon.

Maria uses an extreme bow. Some players do have the arm up falling backwards but I I think it's a natural result of the tilt (or bow). Maria is about 10-15˚ backwards against the side of her head. If the hips is bowed out (towards the net), it can help create more upwards thrust. But still, the hips and core must rotate away from the ball (what made Roscoe Tanner's serve amazing). I think Ben, Todd and Mark (Kovacs) feel the best WTA service models are: Serena, Maria, Nadia Petrova, Sam Stosur. I might be missing one more (I think 5 names were mentioned in casual conversations).

I think in the latest 15-30 USTA electronic magazine, John Evert suggested the leg drive is off the left leg. In the pinpoint, this is true. But in the feet apart (platform) the leg drive is off the right leg. The cartwheel is initiated differently.

I agree, I think a platform is viable. In technical differences between men and women (I commented elsewhere in the forum), I think there are several reasons it happens (e.g, 80% of women use feet together, whereas 50% of men use feet apart).

Gender Differences (and individual)
1. jumping ability (ability to use back foot for upwards push)
2. Upper body, development of power: spin or velocity? Trade-off
3. Feet together, may potentially stress back/shoulders more due to less use of legs and in loading, players may try to use the back and shoulders more (rotate out of safe ROM). ex: Venus Williams.

[johnyandell]

Great response as usual. I looked at Maria in our archives. The bow is pretty extreme in some:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/maria_sharapova/ms_serve/ms_1st_serve/ms_1st_serve.html?MS1stSAdSide1.mov

Less so than others:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/maria_sharapova/ms_serve/ms_1st_serve/ms_1st_serve.html?MS1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

My point would be that this occurs naturally in the motion particularly as a result of arm extension in the toss and possibly the foot sliding up.

I've seen coaches make a teaching point of actually trying tilit the upper torso back at the hips to create increased hip thrust. Sometimes they point at Sampras as a model:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_serve_body_rotation/ps_serve_body_rotation.html?PS1stSDeuceBodyRotationFront2.mov

But with both him and Maria I see the hips and upper torso relatively in line.

BTW I've got your article and plan to put it up when I finish my series on the serve in a few issues. The different approach and perspective will be nice!

[10splayer]

Ben is primarily doing the study. I think Todd participates but I believe it's 3-4 on the WTA/ATP player services staff (trainers) since they are trained for qualitatitive analysis from an injury point of view. It's really not complex but looking for basically key elements. Hopefully Ben will have an article for you soon.

Maria uses an extreme bow. Some players do have the arm up falling backwards but I I think it's a natural result of the tilt (or bow). Maria is about 10-15˚ backwards against the side of her head. If the hips is bowed out (towards the net), it can help create more upwards thrust. But still, the hips and core must rotate away from the ball (what made Roscoe Tanner's serve amazing). I think Ben, Todd and Mark (Kovacs) feel the best WTA service models are: Serena, Maria, Nadia Petrova, Sam Stosur. I might be missing one more (I think 5 names were mentioned in casual conversations).

I think in the latest 15-30 USTA electronic magazine, John Evert suggested the leg drive is off the left leg. In the pinpoint, this is true. But in the feet apart (platform) the leg drive is off the right leg. The cartwheel is initiated differently.

I agree, I think a platform is viable. In technical differences between men and women (I commented elsewhere in the forum), I think there are several reasons it happens (e.g, 80% of women use feet together, whereas 50% of men use feet apart).

Gender Differences (and individual)
1. jumping ability (ability to use back foot for upwards push)
2. Upper body, development of power: spin or velocity? Trade-off
3. Feet together, may potentially stress back/shoulders more due to less use of legs and in loading, players may try to use the back and shoulders more (rotate out of safe ROM). ex: Venus Williams.

Doug, could you please elaborate on this point, because for the life of me i can't figure out why or how the back leg would be the big force producer in the platform.

Even with the foot back, the weight shifts (COM movement) forward before the push. (it's very obvious in the foot up) And if the COM movement is forward, or biased towards the the left leg, it would be the bigger player in the ground reaction force created. No?

What i see on video is the rear leg coming up before the front leg. (left) So even as the rear leg is off the ground, the front leg is still pushing.


In fact, from a teaching prospective, I find it very important (when learning) the platform to make sure the weight shifts forward (COM) so that when the upper body bows, the center of mass does not move backwards...this is important in creating forward angular momentum. It happens almost by default with a foot up stance, but should be monitered with a foot back. Just my 02 cents.

[tennis_chiro]

Which axis?

Great response as usual. I looked at Maria in our archives. The bow is pretty extreme in some:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/maria_sharapova/ms_serve/ms_1st_serve/ms_1st_serve.html?MS1stSAdSide1.mov

Less so than others:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/maria_sharapova/ms_serve/ms_1st_serve/ms_1st_serve.html?MS1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

My point would be that this occurs naturally in the motion particularly as a result of arm extension in the toss and possibly the foot sliding up.

I've seen coaches make a teaching point of actually trying tilit the upper torso back at the hips to create increased hip thrust. Sometimes they point at Sampras as a model:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_serve_body_rotation/ps_serve_body_rotation.html?PS1stSDeuceBodyRotationFront2.mov

But with both him and Maria I see the hips and upper torso relatively in line.

BTW I've got your article and plan to put it up when I finish my series on the serve in a few issues. The different approach and perspective will be nice!

It seems like there is general agreement that we want to minimize the extension/arch of the back about an axis of rotation that is horizontal, either through the waist/SI-joint/low back or the mid-back/thoraco-lumbar junction. But it seems to be ignored that there should be significant arch/pulling back of the right side (for a righty) of the body against an extended left side of the body through a vertical axis or at least one parallel to the orientation of the spinal column. Kind of like the load you make before you would throw a punch.

Comments?

don

[DougEng]

Doug, could you please elaborate on this point, because for the life of me i can't figure out why or how the back leg would be the big force producer in the platform.

Even with the foot back, the weight shifts (COM movement) forward before the push. (it's very obvious in the foot up) And if the COM movement is forward, or biased towards the the left leg, it would be the bigger player in the ground reaction force created. No?

What i see on video is the rear leg coming up before the front leg. (left) So even as the rear leg is off the ground, the front leg is still pushing.


In fact, from a teaching prospective, I find it very important (when learning) the platform to make sure the weight shifts forward (COM) so that when the upper body bows, the center of mass does not move backwards...this is important in creating forward angular momentum. It happens almost by default with a foot up stance, but should be monitered with a foot back. Just my 02 cents.

Yes, some players find it difficult to see usage of the back leg. Hence, they use the core, back and shoulders primarily to "pull up" into the serve. From a biomechanical and medical point of view, it is frequently flawed due to strain on the back. Perhaps nearly half the WTA players have some issue with this. On the other hand, ATP players usually drive from the back leg. The most effective hip-over-hip and shoulder-over-shoulder action is initiated from the back leg.

Please check out Mark Kovacs video for USPTA On-Court. Particularly look at the second exercise (back foot loading). Mark and Todd Ellenbecker also did some papers on this.

http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=4136&media_type_id=3&Media_FileURL=&media_name=kovacs&media_desc=&media_status=1&media_preview=1&show=10&extra=0&reviewed=1&errors=&presenter=Mark%20Kovacs&AssetCategory=&basicsearch=1&ATT=&LineNbr=3&StartRow=21&ts=1

I believe Elliott suggested in a 1983 study that the foot-gets more vertical, but I would honestly question this. I think there is more horizontal displacement with the foot-up (e.g, Djokovic). In the foot-back, it can be more vertical but less horizontal displacement. In a few measurements, I found it the foot-up creates more forward thrust into the court. The foot-up allows the front foot to slide forward into the court. I mentioned Djokovic and if you look at him, his front foot slides 3' into the court. That left leg also takes a good deal of eccentric stress.

The question really isn't which is better but which lends itself to more deficiencies. That happens to the foot-up. If the legs are not properly loaded, the player may rely on the upper body and shoulder to flex outside a safe ROM.

The problem is that some players when deficient using the back leg, often stress the lower back and shoulders. Venus Williams or Alexa Glatch use excessive back or shoulder movement which can risk injury.

Check page 31 on Ellenbecker, Kovacs and Ramos:

http://www.stms-web.org/pdf/JMST-October2011.pdf

Keep in mind, force developed from the legs is eventually developed as racquet head speed through the kinetic chain. It's a bit like a tsunami wave. The wave in the deep ocean is quite slow and subtle. That's like the legs. But near shore, when the water is shallow, it's obvious how powerful the wave is. That's like the shoulder and arms.

From a sports medicine viewpoint:

http://www.biomedsearch.com/attachments/00/23/01/60/23016050/10.1177_1941738111414175.pdf

Check page 507 under Del Potro. The front leg is considered the axis of rotation. Keep in mind, it essentially does not move. The back leg provides most of the upwards thrust. The right side of the body rotates around the left leg. If the player merely uses the front leg and passively uses the back leg, then there is more strain on the back and shoulders.

With the exception of more vertical thrust of foot-up (Elliott...which I do question...but keep in mind that study was in 1983), I am just re-phrasing the literature. I think the foot-up and foot-back needs to be revisited in terms of getting off the ground, getting forward, spin and pace. The last, pace, is probably not as greatly different with either stance.

[DougEng]

It seems like there is general agreement that we want to minimize the extension/arch of the back about an axis of rotation that is horizontal, either through the waist/SI-joint/low back or the mid-back/thoraco-lumbar junction. But it seems to be ignored that there should be significant arch/pulling back of the right side (for a righty) of the body against an extended left side of the body through a vertical axis or at least one parallel to the orientation of the spinal column. Kind of like the load you make before you would throw a punch.

Comments?

don

Hi Don,

I think I know what you mean. (Let me know if I missed in this comment):

The left side is extended on the toss (vertical axis). The right side rotates backwards with the racquet in the trophy/loading to cocking position. We also need to consider another moving part we didn't discuss here: scapular retraction or scap loading as in baseball.

I just mentioned Alexa Glatch, whom one of the esteemed sport scientists also mentioned above commented that she risks serious injury as the elbow goes back too far which creates scap loading.

See the December 31 2008 post (baseball):

http://www.topvelocity.net/tag/shoulder-rotation/

Scapular loading can also appear like the upper back is arching. In fact, some players may intentionally try to pull the elbow back and arch the back. It is safer to simply rotate the core backwards (away from the net) at a tilt. High flexibility and reasonable strength may prevent some players from injury (Djokovic, Sampras). But I think that's the minority.

Which is why I suggest Andy Murray's serve is flawed. The elbow is too high and he's trying to get full rotation off it. He does significant strength training, though. But he can't generate enough spin since the racquet is set too high initially (reduces racquet head drop). So his second serve suffers a little and he may be risking injury. But I'm not a sport medical expert. Time will tell...

[tennis_chiro]

very interesting video; careful, Bottle!

Hi Don,

I think I know what you mean. (Let me know if I missed in this comment):

The left side is extended on the toss (vertical axis). The right side rotates backwards with the racquet in the trophy/loading to cocking position. We also need to consider another moving part we didn't discuss here: scapular retraction or scap loading as in baseball.

I just mentioned Alexa Glatch, whom one of the esteemed sport scientists also mentioned above commented that she risks serious injury as the elbow goes back too far which creates scap loading.

See the December 31 2008 post (baseball):

http://www.topvelocity.net/tag/shoulder-rotation/

Scapular loading can also appear like the upper back is arching. In fact, some players may intentionally try to pull the elbow back and arch the back. It is safer to simply rotate the core backwards (away from the net) at a tilt. High flexibility and reasonable strength may prevent some players from injury (Djokovic, Sampras). But I think that's the minority.

Which is why I suggest Andy Murray's serve is flawed. The elbow is too high and he's trying to get full rotation off it. He does significant strength training, though. But he can't generate enough spin since the racquet is set too high initially (reduces racquet head drop). So his second serve suffers a little and he may be risking injury. But I'm not a sport medical expert. Time will tell...

Yes, Doug,
I think you get what I mean. This pitching video is fascinating. Obviously, hitting a serve with a racquet is different, but the principles have to be similar. I think the 3xextension, etc that he talks about is kind of like the way a server uses the leg drive to store power in the shoulder before he serves; after all, it is not the linear speed of the leg drive that we are really looking for (too many don't understand this).

I'm not advoctating that much scapular retraction or "scap loading", but I think it is important to use a little of it and it is often shortchanged, especially with the abbreviated backswings. I always marveled at the pictures of Sampras's amazing shoulder flexibility. I don't understand how he managed to have so little shoulder trouble in his career. Geoff has put up some pictures from time to time that are absolutely mindboggling. But I do think there is room for some scap loading in almost everyone's serve. But what I'm talking about is the kind of movement one would create when they load up to throw a punch: you kind of pull the rear-punching-hand shoulder back versus the stable front shoulder to create some load before you punch. I don't want to see the elbow above the line of the clavicles until the swing goes up to the ball. I say that the elbow moves continuously up and forward. If it goes up above the clavicle line and then drops, it can't do that. And I think that point of view, my point of view, fits with your analysis of Murray's serve and an inherent flaw in his motion. I do think, though, that there is room for some arching of the right shoulder against that vertical axis; limited, but some.

Thanks.

don

[DougEng]

Yes, Doug,
I think you get what I mean. This pitching video is fascinating. Obviously, hitting a serve with a racquet is different, but the principles have to be similar. I think the 3xextension, etc that he talks about is kind of like the way a server uses the leg drive to store power in the shoulder before he serves; after all, it is not the linear speed of the leg drive that we are really looking for (too many don't understand this).

I'm not advoctating that much scapular retraction or "scap loading", but I think it is important to use a little of it and it is often shortchanged, especially with the abbreviated backswings. I always marveled at the pictures of Sampras's amazing shoulder flexibility. I don't understand how he managed to have so little shoulder trouble in his career. Geoff has put up some pictures from time to time that are absolutely mindboggling. But I do think there is room for some scap loading in almost everyone's serve. But what I'm talking about is the kind of movement one would create when they load up to throw a punch: you kind of pull the rear-punching-hand shoulder back versus the stable front shoulder to create some load before you punch. I don't want to see the elbow above the line of the clavicles until the swing goes up to the ball. I say that the elbow moves continuously up and forward. If it goes up above the clavicle line and then drops, it can't do that. And I think that point of view, my point of view, fits with your analysis of Murray's serve and an inherent flaw in his motion. I do think, though, that there is room for some arching of the right shoulder against that vertical axis; limited, but some.

Thanks.

don

I agree..if the shoulders are relatively flexible and strong, very mild 5-10˚ may be acceptable. Best to check with sport medical experts but I know they will be "conservative." Generally if 100 athletes do it and 4-5 get serious injuries, medical experts will say don't do it since that is a reasonably serious risk. But exceptional athletes may defy what's consider safe/sound for most athletes. In training young athletes or normal people, i would say it's unwise to teach it. There are so many physical weaknesses. In a well-developed athlete, some extra back extension may develop naturally and the flexible athlete is strong in core and shoulders, it probably will be fine. I'm not sure what the limit is, but my guess is 5-10˚ of the elbow behind the coronal plane if the elbow is above the shoulder line. The elbow can actually go farther back if it is below the shoulder line, but then you run into some issues with a low elbow.

[johnyandell]

Another Factor:

The foot back style is also associated with a different pattern of torso rotation. Federer, and in the more extreme case, Sampras turn away from the ball when the weight is dropped roughly evenly at the deepest point. The turn back into the shot also results in a closed torso angle to the baseline at contact. This is associated with a left ball position inside the racket hand.

Compare that to the women who are often wide open at contact with the ball position further right.

[tntenniswhiz]

This is an AWESOME thread! Thanks for taking the time to delve into the detail of this subject!!! JUST AWESOME

Greg Lumb
InsideOut Tennis