Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1

[don_budge]

Video vs. "The Written Word"...and ATP style forehands

Let's hear what you thought of Rick Macci's "Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1"!

Rick Macci...your video about the ATP Style forehand backswing was self explanatory. Nice performance and succinct no nonsense approach. A couple of your interpretations were new to me and I found them quite interesting and I am looking forwards to your further contributions in the future. One cannot argue that this is the technique of choice for most professional tennis players these days and you break it down quite nicely.

One thing that I liked about the articles in the past in TennisPlayer.net was the written version with supporting video. When I used to work at a corporation for a living I used to like to tell my employees that if they had input or suggestions regarding the system to always put them in writing. That way when the air stopped moving that was created by the lips flapping there was still something viable in front of the receiver such as a piece of paper with the ideas written on it for future reference. Most people tend to forget very quickly...and once that air stops moving they may have forgotten something important that was said. Know what I mean? I find myself taking notes when watching something of interest in video form.

Your message about the left hand and shoulder turn is arguably one of the most important fundamental elements of the preparation to swing the racquet as a forehand. Using the left hand to turn the shoulders effectively gets the shoulders in alignment and hopefully the rest of the body and the feet will follow. I also feel that using the left hand is a great contributor to the position of the wrist in the early stages of preparation. Absolutely imperative when taking aim with your shot. I liked it very much that you over emphasized keeping the hand on the racquet so long...most students won't go the whole nine yards so if you tell them to take it all the way back with the left hand one might get lucky if they actually take it back halfway back. Nudging with the elbow was a rather creative interpretation as well. Excellent points.

You make the comment later on in the video...and this is why I wish that there was some written article so I don't get caught paraphrasing or worse..."let me explain...there can be little adaptions or flairs because depending upon how you are holding the racquet...western, semi, eastern...hopefully no more continental forehands out there..."

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2238

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2252

This was a compelling statement as I have recently written a rather long and comprehensive study on the groundstroke game of John McEnroe ("My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand" and "My Thoughts on the McEnroe Backhand" in the links above) as it relates to the continental grip. My study was based on video clips of the McEnroe forehand and backhand from the video archive on this website. I was wondering if you could share your thoughts about why there are "hopefully no more continental forehands out there...". The pause that you made when you said this was rather dramatic and I understood this to mean that you were emphasizing a point. If it were a written article your comment may have been in italics or bolded or somehow or other further emphasized. But at any rate I thought it was a very interesting point and rather compelling that you would make it in your video.

Could you please comment...I am really curious as to what your opinion is regarding the continental gripped game of John McEnroe or continental grips in general and I would love to have a chance to respond to your comments. Why is it that you hope that there are no more continental gripped forehands out there? Our conversation might just leap over into your "3D" video which I found very interesting and fascinating as well. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[hyperwarrior]

forehand unit turn

Wishing I was more active on the forum... but I'm curious about John and people's point of view about "nudging" with the elbow during the unit turn.

As for me, I felt like I did the right thing back then doing the unit turn with the left hand on the racquet's throat (I'm right-handed) and then extend the left arm before the follow through, but I don't think having nudge with the elbow on purpose. Does nudging is another alternative for the right way or is it really the right way for all the purists out there?


It's cool to see Rick exploring some new teaching system. Proprioception in tennis is not concrete and it's great to see the team going deep in these research.

[10splayer]

10splayer, OK, I really appreciate your input here. I think it has helped my understanding a lot.

You're sure welcome. Good luck.

[stroke]

10splayer, OK, I really appreciate your input here. I think it has helped my understanding a lot.

[10splayer]

10splayer, why do you think most players have the shaft of the racquet turned up and the wrist laid back(or extended) a bit on the unit turn, only to go to a neutral wrist position upon the straightening of the arm? Would it not be simpler to have one's wrist in the neutral position on the unit turn so one is already where they need to be?

That's a hell of a question as I've never really asked myself why Ive always taught that. I would imagine there is some momentum advantage as the racquet head falls from a more elevated position. One thing for sure, though, most every good player i've ever seen sets some angle in the backswing...that says alot.

[bottle]

He'll answer, I'm sure, but aren't you building some racket head momentum by putting this extra play in the wrist?

[stroke]

Thanks stroke, and yeah it's a bit deceptive. Most all players will stand the shaft of the racquet up in the unit turn and the wrist a bit extended..(as you mentioned though, perhaps not maxed out) What happens next, however, will determine (elbow postioin also) the bias towards a Type 1 or Type 3..The arm has to be in a certain configuration when the pull occurs. If so, the arm will ROTATE into the slot/hitting arm configuration. Verify this by setting up the elbow extension and neutral wrist postion (as Rick demonstrated) and then step through what would have to happen in order to slot and establish butt cap to ball, inside postion to commence the forward swing. The arm would rotate (externally)...I.E flip.

Macci did a good job explaining that i thought.

10splayer, why do you think most players have the shaft of the racquet turned up and the wrist laid back(or extended) a bit on the unit turn, only to go to a neutral wrist position upon the straightening of the arm? Would it not be simpler to have one's wrist in the neutral position on the unit turn so one is already where they need to be?

[10splayer]

It's raining so I can't immediately try this, but just in the house, if one does as 10splayer says, one's loop immediately becomes freer and maybe deeper on its backside, or both higher and lower if you prefer.

I'm for putting Federer's genius to the side for a minute and returning to Macci's basic scheme (which isn't significantly different). Already, he's conceded us latitude in when we separate hands. He's a reasonable man then, taking pains not to be overly exact.

So let's take 10splayer's firm suggestion, new to Stroke and me both, out to the court and see what happens.

My prediction: A lot will happen: An easier, more organic loop. A feeling of lightness and slight delay good for timing at top of the loop. A better flip.

A resolving of decades-long confusion about what an ideal loop should look like. Does the top of the C go back?

It's likely to with Federer's grip of 3.5 if honoring Macci's checkpoints (elbow pointing at back fence, forearm parallel to court). The loop wants to go out toward rear fence a bit because of the direction the elbow points.

This new loop feels better in our living room-- that's all I know.

Not that one couldn't "pat the dog" straight down.

I'll try that, too.

Some very, very, good points here from Bottle IMO. In no particular order:


1.There are some variations to this "model". Some latitude here based on grips, bias's etc. etc.

2.The Flip will be much more pronounced..


3.Fed is an extreme example. The guy takes an Eastern grip, and pronates so much in the backswing that he reaches full pat the dog at the bottom of the loop. The flip is enormous in terms of counter rotation. No easy task.. and for most, totally unnecessary to that extent.

4. Do agree that racquet head speed will increase, and almost as importantly, the line to the ball will be much shorter, and more direct..

[bottle]

It's raining so I can't immediately try this, but just in the house, if one does as 10splayer says, one's loop immediately becomes freer and maybe deeper on its backside, or both higher and lower if you prefer.

I'm for putting Federer's genius to the side for a minute and returning to Macci's basic scheme (which isn't significantly different). Already, he's conceded us latitude in when we separate hands. He's a reasonable man then, taking pains not to be overly exact.

So let's take 10splayer's firm suggestion, new to Stroke and me both, out to the court and see what happens.

My prediction: A lot will happen: An easier, more organic loop. A feeling of lightness and slight delay good for timing at top of the loop. A better loaded flip.

A resolving of decades-long confusion about what an ideal loop should look like. Does the top of the C go back?

It's likely to with Federer's grip of 3.5 if honoring Macci's checkpoints (elbow pointing at back fence, forearm parallel to court). The loop wants to go out toward rear fence a bit because of the direction the elbow points.

This new loop feels better in our living room-- that's all I know.

Not that one couldn't "pat the dog" straight down.

I'll try that, too.

[10splayer]

This is a very good observation/point that has not been clear to me until now. In rewatching the Federer preparation and then arm straightening, I can see his wrist definitely goes into a neutral position prior to the pull. It appears to me his wrist is only in a slightly more laid back position as the hands break apart, in other words, his wrist is not completely laid back as the hands break apart. His wrist is only completely laid back after the arm straightening, during the pull to contact.

Thanks stroke, and yeah it's a bit deceptive. Most all players will stand the shaft of the racquet up in the unit turn and the wrist a bit extended..(as you mentioned though, perhaps not maxed out) What happens next, however, will determine (elbow postioin also) the bias towards a Type 1 or Type 3..The arm has to be in a certain configuration when the pull occurs. If so, the arm will ROTATE into the slot/hitting arm configuration. Verify this by setting up the elbow extension and neutral wrist postion (as Rick demonstrated) and then step through what would have to happen in order to slot and establish butt cap to ball, inside postion to commence the forward swing. The arm would rotate (externally)...I.E flip.

Macci did a good job explaining that i thought.

[stroke]

No, disagree. The wrist is only laid back, "laid up", as the hands break apart. Watch what happens next...The elbow extends and wrist moves back to a neutral position as it it laid down in the loop. The flip occurs BECAUSE the racquet is pulled from this position. This is what causes the arm to rotate externally and for the wrist to extend. (lay back)

Compare this with Macci's example of the "inside loop". When the hands break apart the arm STAYS externally rotated, and the wrist STAYS extended throughout the backswing. There is nothing to flip.

This is a very good observation/point that has not been clear to me until now. In rewatching the Federer preparation and then arm straightening, I can see his wrist definitely goes into a neutral position prior to the pull. It appears to me his wrist is only in a slightly more laid back position as the hands break apart, in other words, his wrist is not completely laid back as the hands break apart. His wrist is only completely laid back after the arm straightening, during the pull to contact.

[bottle]

[QUOTE=10splayer;20784] The wrist is only laid back, "laid up," as the hands break apart. Watch what happens next...The elbow extends and wrist moves back to a neutral position as it is laid down in the loop.

I'll try this. Thanks.

[10splayer]

I guess that news or bulletpoint or whatever-- often-- has to do with the pre-conceptions that one has lived with for a long time.

For me, the big deal is concave-making of the wrist aka "laying it back" or getting the wrist "laid up" in this case.

I've always thought that mondo or flip ought to be one half backward forearm roll and one half opening out of the wrist, but this video and trying its stuff makes me realize that the wrist can open out first. Which I choose to do a little at a time.

I'm very grateful for this opportunity to make my Federfore more potent.

And I love thinking about all the science behind the video along with Rick Macci's manner and even his forthright salesmanship.

A person should indeed be "all in" once he realizes the new brevity combined with increased racket head speed of this stroke!

Which doesn't mean one has to abandon all other learned shots, especially the very weird ones, so good for confusion of one's opponent.

No, disagree. The wrist is only laid back, "laid up", as the hands break apart. Watch what happens next...The elbow extends and wrist moves back to a neutral position as it it laid down in the loop. The flip occurs BECAUSE the racquet is pulled from this position. This is what causes the arm to rotate externally and for the wrist to extend. (lay back)

Compare this with Macci's example of the "inside loop". When the hands break apart the arm STAYS externally rotated, and the wrist STAYS extended throughout the backswing. There is nothing to flip.

[bottle]

I guess that news or bulletpoint or whatever-- often-- has to do with the pre-conceptions that one has lived with for a long time.

For me, the big deal is concave-making of the wrist aka "laying it back" or getting the wrist "laid up" in this case.

I've always thought that mondo or flip ought to be one half backward forearm roll and one half opening out of the wrist, but this video and trying its stuff makes me realize that the wrist can open out first. Which I choose to do a little at a time.

I'm very grateful for this opportunity to make my Federfore more potent.

And I love thinking about all the science behind the video along with Rick Macci's manner and even his forthright salesmanship.

A person should indeed be "all in" once he realizes the new brevity combined with increased racket head speed of this stroke!

Which doesn't mean one has to abandon all other learned shots, especially the very weird ones, so good for counterpoint and confusion of one's opponent.

[stotty]

It was good as one might expect. To me the bulletpoint was that with the elbow elevated, that in order to get to the "outside" loop the arm must not rotate externally. (watch the forearm start to turn down, as the elbow extends)


In comparison, on the "inside" loop, the arm rotates the opposite way (forearm supination) when the hands break apart. Once this occurs, one really runs the risk of the racquet getting behind the body, and will all but eliminate the flip.

Interesting when you look in the archive at a few of the older players like Connors...very little type 3 seems to be going on. His hitting arm is clued to his shoulder and both rotate as a unit...very little independence of the hitting arm seems to be achieved.