Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1

[bottle]

He'll answer, I'm sure, but aren't you building some racket head momentum by putting this extra play in the wrist?

[10splayer]

10splayer, why do you think most players have the shaft of the racquet turned up and the wrist laid back(or extended) a bit on the unit turn, only to go to a neutral wrist position upon the straightening of the arm? Would it not be simpler to have one's wrist in the neutral position on the unit turn so one is already where they need to be?

That's a hell of a question as I've never really asked myself why Ive always taught that. I would imagine there is some momentum advantage as the racquet head falls from a more elevated position. One thing for sure, though, most every good player i've ever seen sets some angle in the backswing...that says alot.

[stroke]

10splayer, OK, I really appreciate your input here. I think it has helped my understanding a lot.

[10splayer]

10splayer, OK, I really appreciate your input here. I think it has helped my understanding a lot.

You're sure welcome. Good luck.

[hyperwarrior]

forehand unit turn

Wishing I was more active on the forum... but I'm curious about John and people's point of view about "nudging" with the elbow during the unit turn.

As for me, I felt like I did the right thing back then doing the unit turn with the left hand on the racquet's throat (I'm right-handed) and then extend the left arm before the follow through, but I don't think having nudge with the elbow on purpose. Does nudging is another alternative for the right way or is it really the right way for all the purists out there?


It's cool to see Rick exploring some new teaching system. Proprioception in tennis is not concrete and it's great to see the team going deep in these research.

[don_budge]

Video vs. "The Written Word"...and ATP style forehands

Let's hear what you thought of Rick Macci's "Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1"!

Rick Macci...your video about the ATP Style forehand backswing was self explanatory. Nice performance and succinct no nonsense approach. A couple of your interpretations were new to me and I found them quite interesting and I am looking forwards to your further contributions in the future. One cannot argue that this is the technique of choice for most professional tennis players these days and you break it down quite nicely.

One thing that I liked about the articles in the past in TennisPlayer.net was the written version with supporting video. When I used to work at a corporation for a living I used to like to tell my employees that if they had input or suggestions regarding the system to always put them in writing. That way when the air stopped moving that was created by the lips flapping there was still something viable in front of the receiver such as a piece of paper with the ideas written on it for future reference. Most people tend to forget very quickly...and once that air stops moving they may have forgotten something important that was said. Know what I mean? I find myself taking notes when watching something of interest in video form.

Your message about the left hand and shoulder turn is arguably one of the most important fundamental elements of the preparation to swing the racquet as a forehand. Using the left hand to turn the shoulders effectively gets the shoulders in alignment and hopefully the rest of the body and the feet will follow. I also feel that using the left hand is a great contributor to the position of the wrist in the early stages of preparation. Absolutely imperative when taking aim with your shot. I liked it very much that you over emphasized keeping the hand on the racquet so long...most students won't go the whole nine yards so if you tell them to take it all the way back with the left hand one might get lucky if they actually take it back halfway back. Nudging with the elbow was a rather creative interpretation as well. Excellent points.

You make the comment later on in the video...and this is why I wish that there was some written article so I don't get caught paraphrasing or worse..."let me explain...there can be little adaptions or flairs because depending upon how you are holding the racquet...western, semi, eastern...hopefully no more continental forehands out there..."

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2238

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2252

This was a compelling statement as I have recently written a rather long and comprehensive study on the groundstroke game of John McEnroe ("My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand" and "My Thoughts on the McEnroe Backhand" in the links above) as it relates to the continental grip. My study was based on video clips of the McEnroe forehand and backhand from the video archive on this website. I was wondering if you could share your thoughts about why there are "hopefully no more continental forehands out there...". The pause that you made when you said this was rather dramatic and I understood this to mean that you were emphasizing a point. If it were a written article your comment may have been in italics or bolded or somehow or other further emphasized. But at any rate I thought it was a very interesting point and rather compelling that you would make it in your video.

Could you please comment...I am really curious as to what your opinion is regarding the continental gripped game of John McEnroe or continental grips in general and I would love to have a chance to respond to your comments. Why is it that you hope that there are no more continental gripped forehands out there? Our conversation might just leap over into your "3D" video which I found very interesting and fascinating as well. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[RickMacci]

Continental No and Yes

At the highest level since the speed of the game is at an all time high and the spin of the ball is at an all time high, having the ability to naturally grab the ball with the racquet face slightly closed with a semi western or western( because the grip orientates the the racquet face) is much easier. With a continental grip ,I feel at the club level because maybe you have used it for many years ,keep doing it ,because do what you do best and the ball rotation and speed isn’t as great so you can negate the on coming ball easier. For serves and volleys 100% use continental. overheads use continental.a backhand slice you can(eastern backhand stronger). A forehand emergency machete shot it is ok there also. a forehand defensive lob use it by all means.on return of serve that has too much juice , by all means use it to block and negate the power with it. but your bread and butter / meat and potatoes/ tastes better with another grip besides a continental .you need spin day in and day out and with a continental you have to manufacture it to much and with others grips you can it for free!!! Everybody loves free!!!!!hope this helps!! rick macci

[don_budge]

Thanks Rick...I enjoyed your comments and your videos.

Many thanks for your contributions to our sport and our coaching. I use one of your "cone" drills a lot with my students to get them to move forwards to meet the ball and not passively wait for it to get on top of them...on both volleys and groundstrokes. Your explanation for the Modern ATP Forehand is as good as I have seen so far. I just loved the comment about continental grips...I almost felt as if...you were talkin' to me.

At the highest level since the speed of the game is at an all time high and the spin of the ball is at an all time high, having the ability to naturally grab the ball with the racquet face slightly closed with a semi western or western( because the grip orientates the the racquet face) is much easier.

Rick Macci...
"let me explain...there can be little adaptions or flairs because depending upon how you are holding the racquet...western, semi, eastern...hopefully no more continental forehands out there..."

Thanks for your answer Rick. I totally understand your skepticism. But I watched John McEnroe and his continental grip based game dismantle Mats Wilander and his heavy topspin, strong gripped forehand and standard issue two handed backhand in the Senior Tour Finals at London. McEnroe was asked after the interview if he thought that his style of play would be effective in the modern game of tennis and his answer was...a very positive "Yes"...if I am not mistaken. McEnroe himself thinks his approach to tennis is still relevant.

Thanks again RickMacci...especially for your answer and your Part 1 of the ATP forehand. It was most considerate of you.

[gordonp]

Don makes an interesting point when bringing up McEnroe and his confidence in his continental forehand.
As a former tennis writer/columnist for a major daily newspaper, my first assignment covering a professional event was at a small ATP event at the Orange Lawn Tennis Club. I was sent into the lockerroom to interview McEnroe in his first tournament since his famous tiebreaker with Borg at Wimbledon. After asking all the questions needed for the story I changed the subject to his forehand. I told him I used a continental forehand but there were a lot of coaches suggesting that being lower on the grip was better.
McEnroe, who was sitting in front of his locker still wearing a towel, stood up and grabbed a racket from his bag.
He proceeded to show me what he did with his wrist to create top spin and felt without question his forehand was the way to go--no hesitation--no doubt--100 percent positive.
In many ways McEnroe's convictions made him the player he was during his prime. For the majority of us mortals the continental grip may not be the way to go, but there will aways be the exceptions. Had McEnroe worked with Rick Macci I bet he'd have his continental forehand especially with his style of play.

[stotty]

Continental days seem over...

There’s been a lot of talk on the forum about the use of the continental grip for a forehand...that there is still a place for it in the game at world-class level, with McEnroe being cited as the grip's finest example.

But I don’t remember McEnroe ever hitting a winner from the back of the court as is commonplace in today’s tennis. I don’t remember him hitting many forehand winners from the mid-court come to that. I doubt giving him a modern super-duper racket and strings would have made much difference either, because a flipless forehand cannot be “turbocharged” in the way a ATP forehand can. You need counter-rotations...bones going one way and muscles resisting for that.

McEnroe’s forehand wasn’t the best in his era even in his prime. And compared to today’s forehands it rates a long way down the list. Today’s tennis on today’s courts is all about relentless, pounding forehands. It’s the must have shot. While the modern game may be deficient in some areas compared to the past, it’s come on leaps and bounds in others, especially in the baseline department. Forehands today are simply a different class compared to back then...no comparison...even taking old rackets into consideration.

McEnroe at his zenith playing any of the top players today would be facing major problems. The power and shot tolerance among the top four is simply outstanding. It’s likely Mac would be defending from the get-go in rallies, with little baseline game of his own, relatively speaking, to fight back with. Sure, his intricate skills and strategic play are second to none...but would he get the chance to use them often enough to make an impact? Unlikely. I cannot even begin to imagine how he would cope with Nadal’s forehand in baseline rallies.

Never say never, but I would say it unlikely we will see another world number one using a continental grip for his forehand 1) because it’s simply become obsolete. 2) because it’s considered irresponsible for coaches to teach youngsters a continental forehand.

[don_budge]

Serious?

There’s been a lot of talk on the forum about the use of the continental grip for a forehand...that there is still a place for it in the game at world-class level, with McEnroe being cited as the grip's finest example.

But I don’t remember McEnroe ever hitting a winner from the back of the court as is commonplace in today’s tennis. I don’t remember him hitting many forehand winners from the mid-court come to that. I doubt giving him a modern super-duper racket and strings would have made much difference either, because a flipless forehand cannot be “turbocharged” in the way a ATP forehand can. You need counter-rotations...bones going one way and muscles resisting for that.

McEnroe’s forehand wasn’t the best in his era even in his prime. And compared to today’s forehands it rates a long way down the list. Today’s tennis on today’s courts is all about relentless, pounding forehands. It’s the must have shot. While the modern game may be deficient in some areas compared to the past, it’s come on leaps and bounds in others, especially in the baseline department. Forehands today are simply a different class compared to back then...no comparison...even taking old rackets into consideration.

McEnroe at his zenith playing any of the top players today would be facing major problems. The power and shot tolerance among the top four is simply outstanding. It’s likely Mac would be defending from the get-go in rallies with little baseline game of his own, relatively speaking, to fight back with. Sure, his intricate skills and strategic play are second to none...but would he get the chance to use them often enough to make an impact? Unlikely. I cannot even begin to imagine how he would cope with Nadal’s forehand in baseline rallies.

Never say never, but I would say it unlikely we will see another world number one using a continental grip for his forehand 1) because it’s simply become obsolete. 2) because it’s considered irresponsible for coaches to teach youngsters a continental forehand.

You cannot be SERIOUS!

[don_budge]

The Fly...

As a former tennis writer/columnist for a major daily newspaper, my first assignment covering a professional event was at a small ATP event at the Orange Lawn Tennis Club. I was sent into the lockerroom to interview McEnroe in his first tournament since his famous tiebreaker with Borg at Wimbledon. After asking all the questions needed for the story I changed the subject to his forehand. I told him I used a continental forehand but there were a lot of coaches suggesting that being lower on the grip was better.
McEnroe, who was sitting in front of his locker still wearing a towel, stood up and grabbed a racket from his bag.

He proceeded to show me what he did with his wrist to create top spin and felt without question his forehand was the way to go--no hesitation--no doubt--100 percent positive.

What a great moment that must have been for you...gordonp. I wish that I could have been a fly on the wall for that interview. South Orange, New Jersey. I saw Connors and Nastase play doubles at that tournament in 1973. What a beautiful comment! Thanks for sharing! Wonderful memory for you I am sure. Cool! Was it a Wilson Pro Staff? That McEnroe...he was really something. Still is for that matter.

[gordonp]

I found Rick's comments in regards to many women on the WTA tour--elbow low and racket behind the back--most interesting. If we check John's video on Caroline Wozniacki we will see her elbow tucked into her body and the racket getting behind her back.

However, I noticed that she has changed her forehand over the past year. If we check you tube (Wozniacki using a Yonex Racket) we will see her elbow higher, her racket away from the body and her petting the dog. I'm wondering if this change had anything to do with her slide. I would imagine it will take her some time to get comfortable with it.

However, I can't believe the women weren't told the same things as the men. Angelique Kerber is another player who keeps the elbow low and close to the body. She trains in Poland with men who compete on the ATP tour hitting the forehand with the ATP style. Somebody had to say or suggest something ?

Are the women harder to convince or do they take racket back from ''pet the dog position'' because as Rick addressed to get more power because they feel they aren't as strong,

As far as the continental forehand, I believe John did it his way. He was stubborn like I gather the majority of great players. Somebody had to say something to John about switching. I even asked John if I should switch to a semiwestern. He said I should stick with the continental.

On one hand my forehand never got much better, but on the other I could always count on John for a good interview.

[tennis_chiro]

No western grips being taught by Aussies in the 60's

...
As far as the continental forehand, I believe John did it his way. He was stubborn like I gather the majority of great players. Somebody had to say something to John about switching. I even asked John if I should switch to a semiwestern. He said I should stick with the continental.

On one hand my forehand never got much better, but on the other I could always count on John for a good interview.

McEnroe was born in '59 or '60. When he was learning to play in Douglaston in the 60's and then at Port Washington in the early 70's, the choice for teachers was either Eastern or Continental. There were some Western grips, but they were essentially anomalies. The Aussies that ran Port Washington: Hopmann and then Alex Aitchison and even Tony Palafox, all emphasized net play and the continental grip was strongly advocated. By the time Borg was making his impact, McEnroe's strokes were set. The heavy ball was hit by the players with Eastern grips.

don

[bottle]

gordonp!

Mr. gordonp:

You say McEnroe showed you what he does with his wrist for forehand topspin with his continental grip, but nobody was curious enough to ask "What?".

Well, I am. What?

Thanks!