Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1

[don_budge]

Kids...and intuition.

I think this is very true. I am currently hitting with my 6 year old son and I hear the same reasoning. While playing from the service line he is fine with elbow high and racquet farther.., but while hitting from the baseline he switches to elbow tucked and racquet straight back.. Why? Says " then only I can hit deeper, no? "...

Interesting stuff...gokulms. Kids just seem to have a knack for figuring stuff out...to a certain point. For instance...your son's body is telling him which way to go and I think he is right. I don't like that elbow up position at all. Certainly not for someone who is not strong enough to pull it off.

Think about this...start your son off at the net and teach him how to volley then work him backwards to the baseline. Once he is back on the baseline...work him forwards again. Work him forwards and backwards as well as side to side. You will find that his strokes will find a different groove than the standard ATP issue. At the net he should be playing with a very neutral grip and as he moves back he can strengthen it to maximum strong eastern. That way he is being introduced to the forecourt and net as well.

At the net he can start with a two handed backhand volley but eventually weaned off the other hand and then he will be on his way to learning a sound backhand slice with the possibility of converting to one handed somewhere down the line. Don't look at it as results now...think development. When he is big and strong enough he will be playing the all court version of tennis the way it was meant to be played.

See how Tommy Haas has been faring as of late...and he is technically over the hill. But his style of play is conducive to wreaking havoc over the conventional shock and awe tennis being played today at the professional level. One of the things that I don't care for in the standard issue to the game today is the lack of flexibility in the stroke...you never see players playing the all court game with that swing. Even Federer is seemingly challenged in the forecourt and at the net and his range of approach shots seem to be limited by his grip and swing. I cringe every time I see him approach to Nadal, Djokovic and Murray with topspin...he plays right into their strength. Tommy on the other hand has a sound game plan using underspin, sidespin and variation in depth when he is playing the forecourt.

By the time your son is competing at the junior level he will be truly developing into an all court player and not just some one dimensional robot. He won't find tennis so boring through the years. He will be something of an anomaly and the others will have a difficult time trying to match his style with theirs. He on the other hand will not have that problem since all the rest play the same way.

[bottle]

Nice Shot, Rip

Which makes me want to answer with one of my own. Think I'll call it, "Authorize yourself to be dumb." As in "Watch the forehand backswing of John McEnroe a thousand times and think the racket stops to go forward." That may or may not be true some of the time, but in the videos I've been clicking on recently, the racket goes sideways at the top downward toward the inside. Down and up, sideways, forward-- a gentle roller coaster for very small kids.

Hmmm. This thread is supposed to be "Developing the ATP Style Forehand: Part One." But on Easter day how much play did the Tennis Channel give to the ATP forehand? Well, every time the ad for Tennis Player came on and John Yandell's head filled the screen.

Most of the time however the screen was filled by John McEnroe playing another match in the PowerShares Tour of last year. Not that I watched the boob tube all day on Easter-- in fact, I'd seen those matches before. But I checked in one or two times to see what was happening. All John McEnroe getting to another final even when Pat or Andre or Jim got by him. These inconsistent outcomes are more like baseball!

Very hard to get away from John McEnroe these days. Geoffrey Williams (like the other angry stringers) must be going out of his mind.

Note for gordonp. Make sure to see don_budge today in the "My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand."

[stotty]

Arm

It's arm, not wrist...no wrist lag equals no wrist. Mac had the most minimal wrist lag possible. Whatever Mac thought he was doing with his wrist...he wasn't. He used precious little topspin anyway.

[bottle]

Happy Easter. Allelulia and go go go.

Not to disparage gokulm's post, which I find very interesting (and self-standing!) and applicable to learning or teaching an ATP forehand now within the reach of everybody, but gordonp: I think you should try John McEnroe's wrist action in a continental forehand again and make it work this time.

I got up the clip:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterFront.mov

I shut my eyes and pushed the right arrow 37 times per your instruction.

Now, what's wrist doing-- at contact?

It's moving, right, but how? And in what direction? And the arm is rolling a little. In fact, if you measured out-- in roughly equal amounts-- the arm roll and the wrist laying back, the two would almost cancel each other out to preserve the original pitch of John McEnroe's zombie arm swing but maybe come over the ball just a bit.

Am I wrong? And isn't this exploration more fun than asking if the novel, the continental forehand and God are dead? Those are hackneyed subjects that usually lead to dull conversation.

Your answer in # 31, gordonp, for which I'm very grateful, has made the question I asked more real even for me.

Goal: to solve a little bit of mystery very likely to be clouded by myth, i.e., John McEnroe's hands are so special, he's such a genius, nothing he does could ever apply to the ordinary you or me.

Maybe, but on the other hand he founded a tennis school. So he must believe in education and communication as true possibility.

Moreover, he wished to make something technical clear way back in that locker room, in unguarded and spontaneous enthusiasm-- a time to trust some source the most?

I always wonder, in cases like this: What if the great man doesn't inhabit some other planet but is rather being more simple and straightforward than the rest of us?

Because the McEnroe forehand has fewer things about it to go wrong than most of the forehands we ever see or model.

To be sure, what parts there are must be in perfect order, and something other than wrist could be causing one's McEnroe imitation to go wrong.

Let's check a few more videos to see if this backward giving wrist idea can persist, and if so, can one appropriate it as part of one's personal arsenal?

[gokulms]

......
Are the women harder to convince or do they take racket back from ''pet the dog position'' because as Rick addressed to get more power because they feel they aren't as strong,
.......

I think this is very true. I am currently hitting with my 6 year old son and I hear the same reasoning. While playing from the service line he is fine with elbow high and racquet farther.., but while hitting from the baseline he switches to elbow tucked and racquet straight back.. Why? Says " then only I can hit deeper, no? "...

[gordonp]

Mr. gordonp:

You say McEnroe showed you what he does with his wrist for forehand topspin with his continental grip, but nobody was curious enough to ask "What?".

Well, I am. What?

Thanks!

Hi Bottle,

He showed me how he rolled his wrist to create spin. I checked out the first forehand video on tennisplayer with McEnroe. If you start at the beginning and hit the arrow key it occurs at frame 37 to 38. At frame 37, you see McEnroe's palm and fingers, the next frame it appears he rolled his wrist. I believe that was what he talked about. I tried it the next day but couldn't do it.
Please understand this interview happened many years ago I never expected John to take his racket out of his bag and demonstrate it. I was taken aback. We had just finished a twenty minute one on one interview and he was still dressed in his towel. I knew he wanted to get out of there.
I thought of asking more questions but that wasn't the reason I was in the lockerroom so I stopped myself. It was my first interview with a pro athlete. I will say John was genuine and engaged in our conversation.
In regards to an earlier comment, the continental and Eastern forehand grips were standard at the time at Port Washington but the game was beginning to change and evolve into today's ATP forehand.
I wonder if new equipment (strings and rackets) had more to do with the demise of the continental forehand than anything else.

[bottle]

gordonp!

Mr. gordonp:

You say McEnroe showed you what he does with his wrist for forehand topspin with his continental grip, but nobody was curious enough to ask "What?".

Well, I am. What?

Thanks!

[tennis_chiro]

No western grips being taught by Aussies in the 60's

...
As far as the continental forehand, I believe John did it his way. He was stubborn like I gather the majority of great players. Somebody had to say something to John about switching. I even asked John if I should switch to a semiwestern. He said I should stick with the continental.

On one hand my forehand never got much better, but on the other I could always count on John for a good interview.

McEnroe was born in '59 or '60. When he was learning to play in Douglaston in the 60's and then at Port Washington in the early 70's, the choice for teachers was either Eastern or Continental. There were some Western grips, but they were essentially anomalies. The Aussies that ran Port Washington: Hopmann and then Alex Aitchison and even Tony Palafox, all emphasized net play and the continental grip was strongly advocated. By the time Borg was making his impact, McEnroe's strokes were set. The heavy ball was hit by the players with Eastern grips.

don

[gordonp]

I found Rick's comments in regards to many women on the WTA tour--elbow low and racket behind the back--most interesting. If we check John's video on Caroline Wozniacki we will see her elbow tucked into her body and the racket getting behind her back.

However, I noticed that she has changed her forehand over the past year. If we check you tube (Wozniacki using a Yonex Racket) we will see her elbow higher, her racket away from the body and her petting the dog. I'm wondering if this change had anything to do with her slide. I would imagine it will take her some time to get comfortable with it.

However, I can't believe the women weren't told the same things as the men. Angelique Kerber is another player who keeps the elbow low and close to the body. She trains in Poland with men who compete on the ATP tour hitting the forehand with the ATP style. Somebody had to say or suggest something ?

Are the women harder to convince or do they take racket back from ''pet the dog position'' because as Rick addressed to get more power because they feel they aren't as strong,

As far as the continental forehand, I believe John did it his way. He was stubborn like I gather the majority of great players. Somebody had to say something to John about switching. I even asked John if I should switch to a semiwestern. He said I should stick with the continental.

On one hand my forehand never got much better, but on the other I could always count on John for a good interview.

[don_budge]

The Fly...

As a former tennis writer/columnist for a major daily newspaper, my first assignment covering a professional event was at a small ATP event at the Orange Lawn Tennis Club. I was sent into the lockerroom to interview McEnroe in his first tournament since his famous tiebreaker with Borg at Wimbledon. After asking all the questions needed for the story I changed the subject to his forehand. I told him I used a continental forehand but there were a lot of coaches suggesting that being lower on the grip was better.
McEnroe, who was sitting in front of his locker still wearing a towel, stood up and grabbed a racket from his bag.

He proceeded to show me what he did with his wrist to create top spin and felt without question his forehand was the way to go--no hesitation--no doubt--100 percent positive.

What a great moment that must have been for you...gordonp. I wish that I could have been a fly on the wall for that interview. South Orange, New Jersey. I saw Connors and Nastase play doubles at that tournament in 1973. What a beautiful comment! Thanks for sharing! Wonderful memory for you I am sure. Cool! Was it a Wilson Pro Staff? That McEnroe...he was really something. Still is for that matter.

[don_budge]

Serious?

There’s been a lot of talk on the forum about the use of the continental grip for a forehand...that there is still a place for it in the game at world-class level, with McEnroe being cited as the grip's finest example.

But I don’t remember McEnroe ever hitting a winner from the back of the court as is commonplace in today’s tennis. I don’t remember him hitting many forehand winners from the mid-court come to that. I doubt giving him a modern super-duper racket and strings would have made much difference either, because a flipless forehand cannot be “turbocharged” in the way a ATP forehand can. You need counter-rotations...bones going one way and muscles resisting for that.

McEnroe’s forehand wasn’t the best in his era even in his prime. And compared to today’s forehands it rates a long way down the list. Today’s tennis on today’s courts is all about relentless, pounding forehands. It’s the must have shot. While the modern game may be deficient in some areas compared to the past, it’s come on leaps and bounds in others, especially in the baseline department. Forehands today are simply a different class compared to back then...no comparison...even taking old rackets into consideration.

McEnroe at his zenith playing any of the top players today would be facing major problems. The power and shot tolerance among the top four is simply outstanding. It’s likely Mac would be defending from the get-go in rallies with little baseline game of his own, relatively speaking, to fight back with. Sure, his intricate skills and strategic play are second to none...but would he get the chance to use them often enough to make an impact? Unlikely. I cannot even begin to imagine how he would cope with Nadal’s forehand in baseline rallies.

Never say never, but I would say it unlikely we will see another world number one using a continental grip for his forehand 1) because it’s simply become obsolete. 2) because it’s considered irresponsible for coaches to teach youngsters a continental forehand.

You cannot be SERIOUS!

[stotty]

Continental days seem over...

There’s been a lot of talk on the forum about the use of the continental grip for a forehand...that there is still a place for it in the game at world-class level, with McEnroe being cited as the grip's finest example.

But I don’t remember McEnroe ever hitting a winner from the back of the court as is commonplace in today’s tennis. I don’t remember him hitting many forehand winners from the mid-court come to that. I doubt giving him a modern super-duper racket and strings would have made much difference either, because a flipless forehand cannot be “turbocharged” in the way a ATP forehand can. You need counter-rotations...bones going one way and muscles resisting for that.

McEnroe’s forehand wasn’t the best in his era even in his prime. And compared to today’s forehands it rates a long way down the list. Today’s tennis on today’s courts is all about relentless, pounding forehands. It’s the must have shot. While the modern game may be deficient in some areas compared to the past, it’s come on leaps and bounds in others, especially in the baseline department. Forehands today are simply a different class compared to back then...no comparison...even taking old rackets into consideration.

McEnroe at his zenith playing any of the top players today would be facing major problems. The power and shot tolerance among the top four is simply outstanding. It’s likely Mac would be defending from the get-go in rallies, with little baseline game of his own, relatively speaking, to fight back with. Sure, his intricate skills and strategic play are second to none...but would he get the chance to use them often enough to make an impact? Unlikely. I cannot even begin to imagine how he would cope with Nadal’s forehand in baseline rallies.

Never say never, but I would say it unlikely we will see another world number one using a continental grip for his forehand 1) because it’s simply become obsolete. 2) because it’s considered irresponsible for coaches to teach youngsters a continental forehand.

[gordonp]

Don makes an interesting point when bringing up McEnroe and his confidence in his continental forehand.
As a former tennis writer/columnist for a major daily newspaper, my first assignment covering a professional event was at a small ATP event at the Orange Lawn Tennis Club. I was sent into the lockerroom to interview McEnroe in his first tournament since his famous tiebreaker with Borg at Wimbledon. After asking all the questions needed for the story I changed the subject to his forehand. I told him I used a continental forehand but there were a lot of coaches suggesting that being lower on the grip was better.
McEnroe, who was sitting in front of his locker still wearing a towel, stood up and grabbed a racket from his bag.
He proceeded to show me what he did with his wrist to create top spin and felt without question his forehand was the way to go--no hesitation--no doubt--100 percent positive.
In many ways McEnroe's convictions made him the player he was during his prime. For the majority of us mortals the continental grip may not be the way to go, but there will aways be the exceptions. Had McEnroe worked with Rick Macci I bet he'd have his continental forehand especially with his style of play.

[don_budge]

Thanks Rick...I enjoyed your comments and your videos.

Many thanks for your contributions to our sport and our coaching. I use one of your "cone" drills a lot with my students to get them to move forwards to meet the ball and not passively wait for it to get on top of them...on both volleys and groundstrokes. Your explanation for the Modern ATP Forehand is as good as I have seen so far. I just loved the comment about continental grips...I almost felt as if...you were talkin' to me.

At the highest level since the speed of the game is at an all time high and the spin of the ball is at an all time high, having the ability to naturally grab the ball with the racquet face slightly closed with a semi western or western( because the grip orientates the the racquet face) is much easier.

Rick Macci...
"let me explain...there can be little adaptions or flairs because depending upon how you are holding the racquet...western, semi, eastern...hopefully no more continental forehands out there..."

Thanks for your answer Rick. I totally understand your skepticism. But I watched John McEnroe and his continental grip based game dismantle Mats Wilander and his heavy topspin, strong gripped forehand and standard issue two handed backhand in the Senior Tour Finals at London. McEnroe was asked after the interview if he thought that his style of play would be effective in the modern game of tennis and his answer was...a very positive "Yes"...if I am not mistaken. McEnroe himself thinks his approach to tennis is still relevant.

Thanks again RickMacci...especially for your answer and your Part 1 of the ATP forehand. It was most considerate of you.

[RickMacci]

Continental No and Yes

At the highest level since the speed of the game is at an all time high and the spin of the ball is at an all time high, having the ability to naturally grab the ball with the racquet face slightly closed with a semi western or western( because the grip orientates the the racquet face) is much easier. With a continental grip ,I feel at the club level because maybe you have used it for many years ,keep doing it ,because do what you do best and the ball rotation and speed isn’t as great so you can negate the on coming ball easier. For serves and volleys 100% use continental. overheads use continental.a backhand slice you can(eastern backhand stronger). A forehand emergency machete shot it is ok there also. a forehand defensive lob use it by all means.on return of serve that has too much juice , by all means use it to block and negate the power with it. but your bread and butter / meat and potatoes/ tastes better with another grip besides a continental .you need spin day in and day out and with a continental you have to manufacture it to much and with others grips you can it for free!!! Everybody loves free!!!!!hope this helps!! rick macci