Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1

[johnyandell]

Let's hear what you thought of Rick Macci's "Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1"!

[bman]

Good video. I agree with everything he says.

Looking at these first few videos/articles, I'm wondering: In this ADD generation, was there a conscious decision to make reading go the way of the dinosaur?

This is not a criticism...I definitely think it's easier to follow this stuff when you are listening to somebody as opposed to wading through lots of discussion of supination, pronation, etc

[stotty]

Superb

Let's hear what you thought of Rick Macci's "Developing an ATP Style Forehand: Part 1"!

The video took an age to load...but it was worth the wait.

This is EXACTLY what I am looking for...checkpoints...how to make the positions...it's the crux coaching good technique.

You can write 10,000 eloquent words but you'll never beat being shown by a video demonstration. Rick really knows how to deliver information and comes across great in front of the camera.

John, this is just what I wanted...and it's what so many coaches need.

[studini]

Bravo!

[gordonp]

Great work !

For the past four years, I've sent many of my students to Rick Macci's Tennis Academy, and suggested private lessons. My feeling is that if the parents are going to send their kids to a camp his place is where they should go.

The kids video tape their lessons and I will talk with Rick in regards to his suggestions which is exactly what we see on his recent work for tennisplayer.net.

I've gotten many of his USPTA tapes and listened to him at various conferences but this series we will probably see on the ATP forehand is more "meat and potatoes.''

Like John says, Rick stays on the cutting edge when it comes to teaching technique.

All I can say is that it works.

[10splayer]

It was good as one might expect. To me the bulletpoint was that with the elbow elevated, that in order to get to the "outside" loop the arm must not rotate externally. (watch the forearm start to turn down, as the elbow extends)


In comparison, on the "inside" loop, the arm rotates the opposite way (forearm supination) when the hands break apart. Once this occurs, one really runs the risk of the racquet getting behind the body, and will all but eliminate the flip.

[stotty]

It was good as one might expect. To me the bulletpoint was that with the elbow elevated, that in order to get to the "outside" loop the arm must not rotate externally. (watch the forearm start to turn down, as the elbow extends)


In comparison, on the "inside" loop, the arm rotates the opposite way (forearm supination) when the hands break apart. Once this occurs, one really runs the risk of the racquet getting behind the body, and will all but eliminate the flip.

Interesting when you look in the archive at a few of the older players like Connors...very little type 3 seems to be going on. His hitting arm is clued to his shoulder and both rotate as a unit...very little independence of the hitting arm seems to be achieved.

[bottle]

I guess that news or bulletpoint or whatever-- often-- has to do with the pre-conceptions that one has lived with for a long time.

For me, the big deal is concave-making of the wrist aka "laying it back" or getting the wrist "laid up" in this case.

I've always thought that mondo or flip ought to be one half backward forearm roll and one half opening out of the wrist, but this video and trying its stuff makes me realize that the wrist can open out first. Which I choose to do a little at a time.

I'm very grateful for this opportunity to make my Federfore more potent.

And I love thinking about all the science behind the video along with Rick Macci's manner and even his forthright salesmanship.

A person should indeed be "all in" once he realizes the new brevity combined with increased racket head speed of this stroke!

Which doesn't mean one has to abandon all other learned shots, especially the very weird ones, so good for counterpoint and confusion of one's opponent.

[10splayer]

I guess that news or bulletpoint or whatever-- often-- has to do with the pre-conceptions that one has lived with for a long time.

For me, the big deal is concave-making of the wrist aka "laying it back" or getting the wrist "laid up" in this case.

I've always thought that mondo or flip ought to be one half backward forearm roll and one half opening out of the wrist, but this video and trying its stuff makes me realize that the wrist can open out first. Which I choose to do a little at a time.

I'm very grateful for this opportunity to make my Federfore more potent.

And I love thinking about all the science behind the video along with Rick Macci's manner and even his forthright salesmanship.

A person should indeed be "all in" once he realizes the new brevity combined with increased racket head speed of this stroke!

Which doesn't mean one has to abandon all other learned shots, especially the very weird ones, so good for confusion of one's opponent.

No, disagree. The wrist is only laid back, "laid up", as the hands break apart. Watch what happens next...The elbow extends and wrist moves back to a neutral position as it it laid down in the loop. The flip occurs BECAUSE the racquet is pulled from this position. This is what causes the arm to rotate externally and for the wrist to extend. (lay back)

Compare this with Macci's example of the "inside loop". When the hands break apart the arm STAYS externally rotated, and the wrist STAYS extended throughout the backswing. There is nothing to flip.

[bottle]

[QUOTE=10splayer;20784] The wrist is only laid back, "laid up," as the hands break apart. Watch what happens next...The elbow extends and wrist moves back to a neutral position as it is laid down in the loop.

I'll try this. Thanks.

[stroke]

No, disagree. The wrist is only laid back, "laid up", as the hands break apart. Watch what happens next...The elbow extends and wrist moves back to a neutral position as it it laid down in the loop. The flip occurs BECAUSE the racquet is pulled from this position. This is what causes the arm to rotate externally and for the wrist to extend. (lay back)

Compare this with Macci's example of the "inside loop". When the hands break apart the arm STAYS externally rotated, and the wrist STAYS extended throughout the backswing. There is nothing to flip.

This is a very good observation/point that has not been clear to me until now. In rewatching the Federer preparation and then arm straightening, I can see his wrist definitely goes into a neutral position prior to the pull. It appears to me his wrist is only in a slightly more laid back position as the hands break apart, in other words, his wrist is not completely laid back as the hands break apart. His wrist is only completely laid back after the arm straightening, during the pull to contact.

[10splayer]

This is a very good observation/point that has not been clear to me until now. In rewatching the Federer preparation and then arm straightening, I can see his wrist definitely goes into a neutral position prior to the pull. It appears to me his wrist is only in a slightly more laid back position as the hands break apart, in other words, his wrist is not completely laid back as the hands break apart. His wrist is only completely laid back after the arm straightening, during the pull to contact.

Thanks stroke, and yeah it's a bit deceptive. Most all players will stand the shaft of the racquet up in the unit turn and the wrist a bit extended..(as you mentioned though, perhaps not maxed out) What happens next, however, will determine (elbow postioin also) the bias towards a Type 1 or Type 3..The arm has to be in a certain configuration when the pull occurs. If so, the arm will ROTATE into the slot/hitting arm configuration. Verify this by setting up the elbow extension and neutral wrist postion (as Rick demonstrated) and then step through what would have to happen in order to slot and establish butt cap to ball, inside postion to commence the forward swing. The arm would rotate (externally)...I.E flip.

Macci did a good job explaining that i thought.

[bottle]

It's raining so I can't immediately try this, but just in the house, if one does as 10splayer says, one's loop immediately becomes freer and maybe deeper on its backside, or both higher and lower if you prefer.

I'm for putting Federer's genius to the side for a minute and returning to Macci's basic scheme (which isn't significantly different). Already, he's conceded us latitude in when we separate hands. He's a reasonable man then, taking pains not to be overly exact.

So let's take 10splayer's firm suggestion, new to Stroke and me both, out to the court and see what happens.

My prediction: A lot will happen: An easier, more organic loop. A feeling of lightness and slight delay good for timing at top of the loop. A better loaded flip.

A resolving of decades-long confusion about what an ideal loop should look like. Does the top of the C go back?

It's likely to with Federer's grip of 3.5 if honoring Macci's checkpoints (elbow pointing at back fence, forearm parallel to court). The loop wants to go out toward rear fence a bit because of the direction the elbow points.

This new loop feels better in our living room-- that's all I know.

Not that one couldn't "pat the dog" straight down.

I'll try that, too.

[10splayer]

It's raining so I can't immediately try this, but just in the house, if one does as 10splayer says, one's loop immediately becomes freer and maybe deeper on its backside, or both higher and lower if you prefer.

I'm for putting Federer's genius to the side for a minute and returning to Macci's basic scheme (which isn't significantly different). Already, he's conceded us latitude in when we separate hands. He's a reasonable man then, taking pains not to be overly exact.

So let's take 10splayer's firm suggestion, new to Stroke and me both, out to the court and see what happens.

My prediction: A lot will happen: An easier, more organic loop. A feeling of lightness and slight delay good for timing at top of the loop. A better flip.

A resolving of decades-long confusion about what an ideal loop should look like. Does the top of the C go back?

It's likely to with Federer's grip of 3.5 if honoring Macci's checkpoints (elbow pointing at back fence, forearm parallel to court). The loop wants to go out toward rear fence a bit because of the direction the elbow points.

This new loop feels better in our living room-- that's all I know.

Not that one couldn't "pat the dog" straight down.

I'll try that, too.

Some very, very, good points here from Bottle IMO. In no particular order:


1.There are some variations to this "model". Some latitude here based on grips, bias's etc. etc.

2.The Flip will be much more pronounced..


3.Fed is an extreme example. The guy takes an Eastern grip, and pronates so much in the backswing that he reaches full pat the dog at the bottom of the loop. The flip is enormous in terms of counter rotation. No easy task.. and for most, totally unnecessary to that extent.

4. Do agree that racquet head speed will increase, and almost as importantly, the line to the ball will be much shorter, and more direct..

[stroke]

Thanks stroke, and yeah it's a bit deceptive. Most all players will stand the shaft of the racquet up in the unit turn and the wrist a bit extended..(as you mentioned though, perhaps not maxed out) What happens next, however, will determine (elbow postioin also) the bias towards a Type 1 or Type 3..The arm has to be in a certain configuration when the pull occurs. If so, the arm will ROTATE into the slot/hitting arm configuration. Verify this by setting up the elbow extension and neutral wrist postion (as Rick demonstrated) and then step through what would have to happen in order to slot and establish butt cap to ball, inside postion to commence the forward swing. The arm would rotate (externally)...I.E flip.

Macci did a good job explaining that i thought.

10splayer, why do you think most players have the shaft of the racquet turned up and the wrist laid back(or extended) a bit on the unit turn, only to go to a neutral wrist position upon the straightening of the arm? Would it not be simpler to have one's wrist in the neutral position on the unit turn so one is already where they need to be?