A New Teaching System: The Serve: Technical Elements

[GeoffWilliams]

YOu can see just how much fed arches his back, ala Sampras, at snap back.

[cms56]

a theory re arching the back in the serve

Arching the back cannot possibly contribute meaningfully to the velocity of the serve, as snapping forward from the waist is a very slow motion. My contention is that the arch places the arm in a much more favorable "side arm" relationship to the right shoulder, such that the arm is in a much better position for external rotation than it would be if it were elevated straight above the shoulder, and then, just as importantly, the shoulder does not have to tolerate the truly punishing position of having the arm in a highly elevated and internally rotated position, as the arm is in the follow through as the hand pronates and the shoulder internally rotates -- a potentially injurious motion, particularly if repeated over and over, inasmuch as the humerus cannot stay adequately depressed for clearance under the acromion. Serious wear and tear on the shoulder result if you don't turn somewhat sideways to the tossed ball.

[stotty]

Arching the back cannot possibly contribute meaningfully to the velocity of the serve, as snapping forward from the waist is a very slow motion. My contention is that the arch places the arm in a much more favorable "side arm" relationship to the right shoulder, such that the arm is in a much better position for external rotation than it would be if it were elevated straight above the shoulder, and then, just as importantly, the shoulder does not have to tolerate the truly punishing position of having the arm in a highly elevated and internally rotated position, as the arm is in the follow through as the hand pronates and the shoulder internally rotates -- a potentially injurious motion, particularly if repeated over and over, inasmuch as the humerus cannot stay adequately depressed for clearance under the acromion. Serious wear and tear on the shoulder result if you don't turn somewhat sideways to the tossed ball.

Thanks for that post...interesting.

If you go to the 15-30 thread you will see the issue of arching discussed in posts by Doug Eng and 10splayer. They are interesting posts. I found them very enlightening. Why don't you take a look...see what you think. It's a good thread to read.

[cms56]

Question for Stotty

Apologies for my lack of sophistication, but I don't even know what the 15-30 thread is. Please advise and I'll direct my attention there.

Thanks.

[stotty]

Apologies for my lack of sophistication, but I don't even know what the 15-30 thread is. Please advise and I'll direct my attention there.

Thanks.

Sorry didn't give you the full name of the thread...apologies.

The thread is called Katirna Adams in 15-30.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2297

[bottle]

Please keep talking, cms56-- you are a perhaps indispensable voice, both in main subject and in your asides.

[stroke]

Love the analysis. It's top drawer, as usual for Yandell. I wonder, though, how much of the analysis John would recommend teachers and coaches convey to students. For instance, with respect to the pro racquet drop, this doesn't even seem like a feature of the serve that should be consciously practiced. It results from the inertia of the racquet and the arm, the latter which externally rotates at the shoulder much as the arm externally rotates in pitchers as they move up the kinetic chain from a stride through pelvic rotation through upper torso rotation. Just as a pitcher's arm naturally externally rotates back relative to the shoulder at it moves forward, the server's arm bends and externally rotates -- naturally. Personally, I don't think this should ever be taught or consciously incorporated into a serve. Rather, I think it should be a consequence of learning to relax the arm and thus to allow it to flex and externally rotate as the pivot progresses. The drop is simply a natural consequence.

I think would be informative to track the racquet head in Federer's serve. Yandell could do this well with his high speed analysis. If from that analysis it did not appear to move backwards relative to the ground, but only relative to the moving shoulder, we might infer that what is happening with the racquet is not so much an active drop as a passive "letting it drop."

I think this "relax and let the drop happen" is what is missing in a lot of the pro women's serve. Also, I thought the portion of John's instructional video when he demonstrated where the average person may need to lift their arm higher in the back swing in order to achieve a fuller racquet drop was very good stuff. I know lower elbow(I suppose about a 90 degree angle from torso to upper arm, as a baseball pitcher would have) is ideal, but I think John is entirely correct that most folks just don't have the shoulder flexibility to achieve the full racquet drop from this position.

[arturohernandez]

Abbreviated vs. semi-circular

I agree entirely with the higher elbow issue. I have struggled a lot with it and used some of the techniques on tennisplayer.net to address it. Basically, in the past my arm tended to move back but it remained too low and then I end up shot putting my serve into the box.

I worked on my serve a lot and eventually came to realize that I had to imagine that my arm was going straight up from my back foot. So I abbreviated my windup. When I do that then I get a much better result. I can time it better and I can hit both second and first serves with the same motion.

The problem I see with the semi-circular windup is that it is very easy to associate with pushing or patty-caking the ball into the box. It is a very long windup and many things can go wrong with the process.

The way I was able to work on it was to serve from the drop. Once I could feel the short powerful finish then I started to add on a new windup. I have a copy at this website in case it is not entirely clear. I don't think it quite where I want it to be but it is much better. But the key for me was to actually serve from the drop. Then I could feel my arm moving up. I still do this in practice when things go off.

Arturo

The video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zM81vaq0pg&feature=youtu.be

The longer story

http://www.servevolution.net

[lobndropshot]

Toss

We tend to look at what the racket is doing but I think that the toss is the portion of the serve that is the most often neglected. I was very happy with how John approached the toss and explained the check points. However, I would like to know more about what happens before the ball leaves the hand. My two main concerns are:
1) the timing of the release point of the toss. 2) The timing of when the toss actually starts.

So, John if you are still watching this thread When does the release point of the toss occur? How does the timing of the toss work with the rest of the motion?

Thank you,

P.S. great work!

[johnyandell]

l and d,

A bit busy at IW but will respond in detail later on.

[lobndropshot]

John,

What are your thoughts pertaining to the toss?

All the best,

L and D

[johnyandell]

This link pretty much shows it all:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/RF_Arm_Action&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_ArmAction_Front3_250fps.mp4

The release is with the tossing arm at about shoulder level or a little higher. The upper arm is just below parallel to the court. But I wouldn't necessarily pick those instants as keys. Rather keeping the tossing arm straight and then trying to get to the trophy position or something close when the tossing arm is fully extended. That plus the path of the ball on a curve to the contact point!

[raulf]

I agree that Federer is a good model to emulate.

But I am curious regarding one difference I notice between Federer and Roddick.

Roddick is practically facing the net at contact, while Federer is semi-open at contact (as mentioned in the Introductory Lesson).

What is the reason for this different position at contact? Is it because Roddick's toss is more out in front than Federer's?

Why wouldn't Federer want to face the net at contact like Roddick does? Perhaps it would give him more power.

[johnyandell]

Raul,

Good question. I think it's the opposite. If you look at Sampras and Fed they are both partially closed. This is related to the stance and the turn away from the ball in the windup. In my opinion the role of the torso rotation is maximized when still moving at contact. Most all the women are wide open at contact. Roddick has a great serve obviously but it is based more on his arm action and legs in my opinion. Fed and Pete have more complete use of kinetic chain.

[GeoffWilliams]

None of the women coil like Pete, or stay coiled as long as he did, or snap back on the serve inwards like he did with that high elbow and arched back. The lagged frame also forced him to catch up to the snap back. No woman shoves her center of gravity out over the baseline, in such a coiled manner.