Interactive Forum Februrary 2013: Petra Kvitova Forehand

[10splayer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHPPsWDR8Ss

Foreigner Suite...Cat Stevens

There are no words, I can use
Because the meaning still leaves for you to choose
And I couldn't stand to let them be abused, by you.

Dreams I had just last night
Made me scared, white with fright
But I'm over to that sunnyside road
Over to that sunnyside road

Fortunes come and fortunes go
But things get better babe, that's one thing I know
And I'm over to that sunnyside road
Over to that sunnyside road

I have a friend that I have met
Who gives me love and a certain respect
Just a little respect, everybody needs just a little respect
That means you. . .you...

And in a little while our love will spread
To you
Ain't no matter who inside this world you know
There'll he someone who will love you just for who you are
Really are

Dreams I had just last night
Made me worried to face up to the light
But I'm over to that sunnyside road
Over to that sunnyside road

Come on now it's freedom calling
Come on over and find yourself
Come on now it's freedom calling
Come on in and remind yourself

Oh darling, you see my face
But it's in my heart that's where it's taking place
And I couldn't stand to let it go to waste
Can you ...

Oh love, sweet blue love
No man can ever get enough
But maybe one day we'll all die in love
Will you . .. oh love, sweet love, my... love

Oh babe, understand
Take my love that's all I have at hand
Please say you will ... don't say you can't
Oh will you will you will you

The moment you walked inside my door
I knew' that I need not look no more
I've seen many other girls before, ah but darling
Heaven must've programmed you

The moment you fell inside my dreams
I realised all I had not seen
I've seen many other girls before, ah hot darling
Heaven must've programmed you

You can live in the largest house
And eleven apartments too
Run your own private plane
And a boat in malibu

But 'till you know' deep down what inside you really need
Well I love you baby, ooh my dear
And I think about you sometimes
But when you're with me boy it chokes my mind

Come on now it's freedom calling
Come on over and find yourself
Come on now it's freedom calling
Come on in and remind yourself

Man must fight for freedom sure that's what most other people would say
Look for a body to lead them but there's too many to lead them away.
Why wait until it's your time to die before you learn what you were born to do'?
Come on now it's freedom calling but there's only one freedom for you.
Love, love boy...
And I can't wait to be with you tomorrow night.

Won't you give me your word that you won't laugh
Cos you've been a saving grace to me
And I'd hate to face a day without you around
My life would be without sound

Love, love, love, love must've made you on a sunday
Cos you taste to me as good as God made honey taste babe
And the sky all glistens with gold
When you're talking to me
And the whirling wind turns to song
Why it sets my soul free

Love, love. love. love must've made you on a sunday

There are no words. I can use
Because the meaning still leaves for you to choose
And I couldn't stand to let them be abused, by you

Unless you happen to be a member of tennisplayer.net...unless you just so happened to read the article by Dr. Brian Gordon...unless you just so happened to understand what he meant by the flip action that he says occurs in Type 3 forehands...unless all of these conditions are met...I guarantee you that 99.9% of all tennis teachers and tennis students will not truly understand just what it is...just what exactly you are talking about. I find tennisplayer.net to be a great resource for tennis information and discussion and the like but the one thing that it is not...is the Holy Grail of Tennis. Things tend to a bit more nebulous than that.

A dictionary definition of the word flip might say something to the effect that to flip is to "turn over or cause to turn over with a sudden sharp movement" which may or may not be adequate to convey an action that is taking place in the "modern forehand" or even forehands that existed before you were born. This is a dangerous term in my book...I would never ever tell a tennis student of mine to "flip" their forehand. Too much connotation would be attributed to the wrist action of the stroke and to advise one to flip ones wrist is inadvisable.

That being said...if any or all of the readers here on the forum are comfortable using that word in describing the action of the forehand groundstroke in tennis that is well by me. But when you leave the confines of this forum I believe that most tennis experts will give you a somewhat cross eyed look if you advise someone to flip their forehand.

Anyways...listen to the song. You might just learn something from it as well. Remember...if you go anywhere in the world, particularly outside of your little comfort zone...if you wish to speak to someone you must define your terms. That is...if you wish to be understood.

"There are no words. I can use
Because the meaning still leaves for you to choose
And I couldn't stand to let them be abused, by you"

Don't like the song, much prefer Wild World. Not sure I appreciate the tone either. Anyway, as someone who HAS been teaching the game for a long period (some really good players), I feel qualified to offer my opinion on the subject. OK?

Anyway, while we're dispensing advice, I would suggest you go back and read Brian's ariticle again...and again. (He is the most interesting read I've come across and I'm not easily impressed) The "wrist" is only a small part in the overall movement associated with the "flip". The much larger "player" is the internal to external rotation of the arm, or not, and when it occurs.

And even though I've worked extensively in Junior Development over the years, and was aware of (and taught) the differences in the above forehand models, Brian's article was well done, and certainly worth mentioning to the masses.

Whether or not you like the term is irrelevent. Again, it's just a name for a movement.

[johnyandell]

I think Rick macci's pieces on this will shed additional light...stand by...

No one is saying there aren't many ways to hit a forehand. What they are saying is that they believe that if you make certain positions it can lead to less motion and more racket speed--that kinda is a holy grail.

[10splayer]

Yes, and it will be nice to see. Personally, I'll be interested in actual video analysis, tips, etc. on how to meet certain positions to keep the arm from rotating externally before the pull and flip.. (this is the crux of it IMO) At any rate, Im sure we will all benefit from this collaboration.

[stroke]

Yes, and it will be nice to see. Personally, I'll be interested in actual video analysis, tips, etc. on how to meet certain positions to keep the arm from rotating externally before the pull and flip.. (this is the crux of it IMO) At any rate, Im sure we will all benefit from this collaboration.

If I had to pick one thing that really jumped out at me on Brian's articles on the type 3, it would be that he stated that the very best type 3 forehands delay their transition point the most, in other words, have the least time from transition point to contact. This really seems evident in Federer's violent flip just before contact. This is in line with what you are saying about the crux of this thing.

[10splayer]

If I had to pick one thing that really jumped out at me on Brian's articles on the type 3, it would be that he stated that the very best type 3 forehands delay their transition point the most, in other words, have the least time from transition point to contact. This really seems evident in Federer's violent flip just before contact. This is in line with what you are saying about the crux of this thing.

Stroke, I'm actually talking more about the transition from backswing to forward swing..When the racquet is pulled...the quick internal to external rotation of the arm sets up what's to come around contact...In other words, it's really a loading mechanism...It also has the benefit of a shorter, more direct line to the ball...

I would assume that a large part of the upcoming article will be about how to meet certain positions( as Yandell states) to illicit this "flip" at the transition stage...(at the bottom of the backswing) With the crux of it being that external rotation is suppressed until this point.

[julian1]

As you probably know ....

If I had to pick one thing that really jumped out at me on Brian's articles on the type 3, it would be that he stated that the very best type 3 forehands delay their transition point the most, in other words, have the least time from transition point to contact. This really seems evident in Federer's violent flip just before contact. This is in line with what you are saying about the crux of this thing.

As you probably know there is a conjecture that ssc of forearm muscles AND/OR biceps muscles is
involved in the stage starting at transition point and finishing at contact.

[stotty]

Ssc

If I had to pick one thing that really jumped out at me on Brian's articles on the type 3, it would be that he stated that the very best type 3 forehands delay their transition point the most, in other words, have the least time from transition point to contact. This really seems evident in Federer's violent flip just before contact. This is in line with what you are saying about the crux of this thing.

Are you saying that there is a way to maximise the SSC...almost like storing up energy before unloading?

[julian1]

BERDYCH and ROBERT LANSDORP

Yes, and it will be nice to see. Personally, I'll be interested in actual video analysis, tips, etc. on how to meet certain positions to keep the arm from rotating externally before the pull and flip.. (this is the crux of it IMO) At any rate, Im sure we will all benefit from this collaboration.

From the same TENNIS CLUB
Does Berdych have a flip?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/tomas_berdych/tb_forehand/tb_fh_arm_action/tb_fh_arm_action.html?TBFHInsideOutArmActionRear.mov

Does Robert Lansdorp teach a flip?

[stroke]

Are you saying that there is a way to maximise the SSC...almost like storing up energy before unloading?

I'm not certain I understand what you are asking, but if you are using the terms flip and SSC interchangeably, I would say what Federer is doing is the prototype for maximization(straight arm and strong eastern or mild semi western grip).

[stroke]

Stroke, I'm actually talking more about the transition from backswing to forward swing..When the racquet is pulled...the quick internal to external rotation of the arm sets up what's to come around contact...In other words, it's really a loading mechanism...It also has the benefit of a shorter, more direct line to the ball...

I would assume that a large part of the upcoming article will be about how to meet certain positions( as Yandell states) to illicit this "flip" at the transition stage...(at the bottom of the backswing) With the crux of it being that external rotation is suppressed until this point.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand completely what you are saying.

[10splayer]

From the same TENNIS CLUB
Does Berdych have a flip?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/tomas_berdych/tb_forehand/tb_fh_arm_action/tb_fh_arm_action.html?TBFHInsideOutArmActionRear.mov

Does Robert Lansdorp teach a flip?

Yes, i see flip in the above mentioned berdych forehand. (old forehand) Don't know what Lansdorp is teaching these days. Certainly, Austin, Davenport no.

[julian1]

Your post #20

Yes, i see flip in the above mentioned berdych forehand. (old forehand) Don't know what Lansdorp is teaching these days. Certainly, Austin, Davenport no.

BTW:your post #20
I apologize getting into a your conversation with stroke
ssc you are talking about is ssc of muscles sourounding a rotator cuff
flip deals with different group of muscles,it least it is conjectured this way.

[tennis_chiro]

Why not?

BTW:your post #20
I apologize getting into a your conversation with stroke
ssc you are talking about is ssc of muscles sourounding a rotator cuff
flip deals with different group of muscles,it least it is conjectured this way.

Why couldn't you have an SSC at the rotator cuff as well as the forearm? In fact, wouldn't the maximization be to have an SSC at the wrist flexors, the arm flexors, and then at the arm/shoulder joint (rotator cuff) and then even all the way to the pelvis (although I assume this would have to be to a much lesser degree). Just think of a major league pitcher coming down on his kick leg: isn't he creating a bit of an SSC at the pelvis and then down to the legs. If you are really using the power of the kinetic chain to its maximum, you are going to create a lot of SSC's. When you watch Rafa hit a forehand, you've got to believe he has more than one SSC being generated in that stroke.

don

[julian1]

Tools to train?

Are you saying that there is a way to maximise the SSC...almost like storing up energy before unloading?

Related subject but NOT exactly what you were asking.
There are some tools to OPTIMIZE ssc or SSC's.
please go to www.google.com
Please put
"speedchain"+"tennis"
into a quarry bar.

You will get a list of links describing how to practise/optimize SSC
However the tool has some opponents
I do NOT use this tool (speedchain) for teaching
Regards,
Julian

[stotty]

Elastic energy

Related subject but NOT exactly what you were asking.
There are some tools to OPTIMIZE ssc or SSC's.
please go to www.google.com
Please put
"speedchain"+"tennis"
into a quarry bar.

You will get a list of links describing how to practise/optimize SSC
However the tool has some opponents
I do NOT use this tool (speedchain) for teaching
Regards,
Julian

Thanks, Julian.

I was referring to the whether elastic energy is a very significant factor in the SSC...or do elastic energy and SSC mean the same thing. Most Americans I speak to never seem to not know what I mean by "elastic energy", and I assume the term over there (for elastic energy) is actually SSC...or some other term we don't use over here. Elastic energy in sport is the storing of energy before unloading it. Getting this part precisely right will equal more power. Long jumpers and high jumpers for example have to get the storing of elastic energy spot on to maximise their jump. When I read BG's section on SSC it's sounds likes another term (or very similar) for elastic energy, no?

Do you use the term "elastic energy" over there?