PAT THE DOG for TWO HANDED BACKHAND

[julian1]

Please see

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=453860&page=3

post #42

[10splayer]

Yes J. This is the mythical "Flip" that is so often discussed on this board.

[julian1]

It is a bit deeper question

Yes J. This is the mythical "Flip" that is so often discussed on this board.

It is a bit deeper question
The flip was discussed and more or less defined by JY/BG for FOREHAND
in TWO articles HERE.
Let me point out that the discussion at TW started as follows:
do we have the same motion of the FLIP for BACKHAND
After 30+ posts at TW the answer is NOT obvious 2 me.
I will try to write down more if I have more time.
PS Forget for a moment that the term "FLIP" is NOT used
at Talk Forum of Tennis Warehouse

[julian1]

My question for John Yandell

Flip for backhand?
Dear Mr Yandell,
could you look at

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...ed=1#post20241

Does it make any sense to talk about "Flip" for backhand?
Thank you
PS
Other possible videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw

[julian1]

Classification of DOUBLE HANDED BACKHANDS

Hi,
it looks like we have the following classification of DOUBLE HANDED backhands:

1.continental grip for the RIGHT HAND plus PTD (for righty)

2.continental grip for the RIGHT HAND plus NO PTD (for righty)

3.a grip switch for the RIGHT HAND plus PTD (for righty)
Is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

the correct reference/link?

4.a grip switch for the RIGHT HAND plus NO PTD (for righty)

5.extreme backhand grip or eastern backhand grip for the RIGHT HAND (for righty)

I will provide some comments below:
1.Case #5 above is rare,I believe

[tennis_chiro]

A lot easier to see in TP High Speed Archives

Hi,
it looks like we have the following classification of DOUBLE HANDED backhands:

1.continental grip for the RIGHT HAND plus PTD (for righty)

2.continental grip for the RIGHT HAND plus NO PTD (for righty)

3.a grip switch for the RIGHT HAND plus PTD (for righty)
Is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

the correct reference/link?

4.a grip switch for the RIGHT HAND plus NO PTD (for righty)

5.extreme backhand grip or eastern backhand grip for the RIGHT HAND (for righty)

I will provide some comments below:
1.Case #5 above is rare,I believe

It's an interesting question and the clip you've posted is great for seeing the continuity of multiple backhands from Novak, but I really like it for seeing the footwork and weight transfer in the shot. If you want to see the position of the hands and whether or not the racket and left hand follows a similar path to the Type 3 ATP forehand BG has outlined in his articles last spring and early summer her on Tennisplayer, you can see it a lot better in TP's own high speed archives which include plenty of really high speed shots in HD that you can actually look at frame by frame and blow up in QuickTime player.

Certainly, you can see that Novak changes the grip in his initial unit turn, turning the racket in his right hand (observe the angle of the racket face), but when he completes his turn the racket head is inside instead of outside like a Type III ATP forehand and it is completely vertical. He does close the face about 30 to 45 degrees as he starts forward and while there is a similarity to a "dog pat", there is no where near as much closure of the face as in the normal ATP forehand. It's also going to take a lot more detailed look at a number of players before we make a generalization about all two-handed backhands making this kind of a move. It does seem like there is a movement from closed to square and never the "open to closed" movement that the average misguided spectator thinks is happening to create topspin. It's a very different stroke from a left-handed forehand mirror of an ATP forehand with the right hand underneath for guidance. The left palm (for a righty) plays a huge role, but the right hand has a role to play as well, and probably an even greater one when the option with the grip change is the stroke we are talking about.

I think the most common stroke is the grip change to the continental grip with a half a dog pat (took me a while to figure out PTD was Pat The Dog). I wouldn't teach the PTD. I would let it develop. But I would insist on getting to that initial position with the racket head inside (the intended line of the shot) and vertical and slightly up at the end of the unit turn as opposed to the often adopted one with the racket head in a more outside position (like Roddick) requiring almost a hitch to get the swing started.

A lot of people get away with a much lower margin of error hitting a much flatter ball because they have that second hand on the racket to give them greater control over the swing and racket face.

Finally, I would suggest anyone who wants to see a great two-handed backhand, get a copy of the first set of the women's final. I don't think I have seen a better model of the two-hander than what Li Na was doing, at least in the first set of the finals. It was absolutely pure and free. So many shots hit with perfect balance and demonstrating a perfect role model of footwork, balance and weight-transfer for my two-handed students. I don't know if she was using PTD, but she was hitting it as well as I have ever seen anyone hit it. I'd want to copy that.

don

[julian1]

Thank you

Thank you,Don

[julian1]

Clip

Don,
Probably

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/novak_djokovic/nd_backhand/nd_bh_wide/nd_bh_wide.html?NDBHWideNeutralStanceSide1.mov

is a good candidate

[julian1]

Backhand return of serve

It gets even MORE complex on a BACKHAND RETURN of serve

[julian1]

Vertical face at the contact means less power

It's an interesting question and the clip you've posted is great for seeing the continuity of multiple backhands from Novak, but I really like it for seeing the footwork and weight transfer in the shot. If you want to see the position of the hands and whether or not the racket and left hand follows a similar path to the Type 3 ATP forehand BG has outlined in his articles last spring and early summer her on Tennisplayer, you can see it a lot better in TP's own high speed archives which include plenty of really high speed shots in HD that you can actually look at frame by frame and blow up in QuickTime player.

Certainly, you can see that Novak changes the grip in his initial unit turn, turning the racket in his right hand (observe the angle of the racket face), but when he completes his turn the racket head is inside instead of outside like a Type III ATP forehand and it is completely vertical. He does close the face about 30 to 45 degrees as he starts forward and while there is a similarity to a "dog pat", there is no where near as much closure of the face as in the normal ATP forehand. It's also going to take a lot more detailed look at a number of players before we make a generalization about all two-handed backhands making this kind of a move. It does seem like there is a movement from closed to square and never the "open to closed" movement that the average misguided spectator thinks is happening to create topspin. It's a very different stroke from a left-handed forehand mirror of an ATP forehand with the right hand underneath for guidance. The left palm (for a righty) plays a huge role, but the right hand has a role to play as well, and probably an even greater one when the option with the grip change is the stroke we are talking about.

I think the most common stroke is the grip change to the continental grip with a half a dog pat (took me a while to figure out PTD was Pat The Dog). I wouldn't teach the PTD. I would let it develop. But I would insist on getting to that initial position with the racket head inside (the intended line of the shot) and vertical and slightly up at the end of the unit turn as opposed to the often adopted one with the racket head in a more outside position (like Roddick) requiring almost a hitch to get the swing started.

A lot of people get away with a much lower margin of error hitting a much flatter ball because they have that second hand on the racket to give them greater control over the swing and racket face.

Finally, I would suggest anyone who wants to see a great two-handed backhand, get a copy of the first set of the women's final. I don't think I have seen a better model of the two-hander than what Li Na was doing, at least in the first set of the finals. It was absolutely pure and free. So many shots hit with perfect balance and demonstrating a perfect role model of footwork, balance and weight-transfer for my two-handed students. I don't know if she was using PTD, but she was hitting it as well as I have ever seen anyone hit it. I'd want to copy that.

don

Don,
Vertical face at the contact means less power

[stotty]

I think this is a nice clip Julian has posted. Like tennis_chiro says, it great for viewing weight transfer and footwork. I think Djokovic's backhand is a great example for kids because of its simplicity. Unlike Federer, Djokovic is a worker when he practices and a better role model in that respect. Have you ever seen anyone as casual as Federer when practicing?

When makes Djokovic so exceptional, for me, is he is so devastating off both wings. Nadal, Federer and Murray significantly favour one wing...Nadal in particular. Djokovic must be the best player we've ever seen off both wings, don't you think?

I think teaching Pat the Dog is a little risky and can go wrong. I agree with tennis_chiro when he says "don't teach it"..."let it develop".

[tennis_chiro]

Check High Speed Archive

Don,
Probably

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/novak_djokovic/nd_backhand/nd_bh_wide/nd_bh_wide.html?NDBHWideNeutralStanceSide1.mov

is a good candidate

Yes. That is an excellent clip, but it is just 30 fps. The high speed archive here has plenty of shots at 250 or 500 fps. And they are in HD.

don

[tennis_chiro]

Can you expound a little,please

Don,
Vertical face at the contact means less power

My point was that a lot of players hit with very little spin on the two-hander and they are able to get away with it because they have greater control of the racket with two hands and don't need as big a margin of error. However, if you start to hit faster and faster balls, you need more topspin to keep the ball in the court and, conversely, to hit with a closed racket face you better have tremendous racket head speed and a stroke that is moving up at the ball so the ball doesn't get dumped in the net. But relative to the actual swing speed, I think you get a great deal of power with that vertical face; in fact, I would venture that you get more actual power per MPH of racket head speed with the vertical face than you do with the closed one because of the inherent efficiency.

don

[julian1]

A better choice

Yes. That is an excellent clip, but it is just 30 fps. The high speed archive here has plenty of shots at 250 or 500 fps. And they are in HD.

don

Probably

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/ND_BH_Wide&stroke=ND%20BH%20Wide%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20250fps.mp4

is a better choice.
It is 250 fps
I am a bit chaotic here because I am short on time
Another of Petrova

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_woman/nadia_petrova/nadia_petrova_v2/nadia_petrova_v2.html?NPBHCenterNeutralStanceSide-0205206-0001.mov

[julian1]

I need 2 hours to do it

My point was that a lot of players hit with very little spin on the two-hander and they are able to get away with it because they have greater control of the racket with two hands and don't need as big a margin of error. However, if you start to hit faster and faster balls, you need more topspin to keep the ball in the court and, conversely, to hit with a closed racket face you better have tremendous racket head speed and a stroke that is moving up at the ball so the ball doesn't get dumped in the net. But relative to the actual swing speed, I think you get a great deal of power with that vertical face; in fact, I would venture that you get more actual power per MPH of racket head speed with the vertical face than you do with the closed one because of the inherent efficiency.

don

I need 2 hours to do it
Speedy Gonzales