PAT THE DOG for TWO HANDED BACKHAND

[tennis_chiro]

love the clip of Petrova, but...

Probably

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/ND_BH_Wide&stroke=ND%20BH%20Wide%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20250fps.mp4

is a better choice.
It is 250 fps
I am a bit chaotic here because I am short on time
Another of Petrova
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...05206-0001.mov

Great shot of Petrova's backhand, but that is a very different stroke from Nole. He never gets the shaft of the racket much below 30 to 35 degrees downward while she has that Venus Williams kind of stroke and gets the shaft down probably more than 60 degrees downward before starting to flip it up. Interestingly, it doesn't appear to me that she has as much of a PTD or forward cant of the racket face at contact as Novak as she is getting her spin from that upward flip of the shaft of the racket.

I like the Petrova move for a topspin lob or a sharp dipper crosscourt, but not for a regular drive.

don

[julian1]

A reference

My point was that a lot of players hit with very little spin on the two-hander and they are able to get away with it because they have greater control of the racket with two hands and don't need as big a margin of error. However, if you start to hit faster and faster balls, you need more topspin to keep the ball in the court and, conversely, to hit with a closed racket face you better have tremendous racket head speed and a stroke that is moving up at the ball so the ball doesn't get dumped in the net. But relative to the actual swing speed, I think you get a great deal of power with that vertical face; in fact, I would venture that you get more actual power per MPH of racket head speed with the vertical face than you do with the closed one because of the inherent efficiency.

don

Don,
There was an experiment made in Austria for ATP players for forehand
The result was that the vertical component of a speed of a racket head at a
contact is
twice SMALLER than the corresponding horizontal component of a speed of a racket head
I do NOT have any data for backhand.
I am NOT sure whether my post is a sensible answer to your post but ...
Regards,
Julian

[julian1]

Please see other posts

It's an interesting question and the clip you've posted is great for seeing the continuity of multiple backhands from Novak, but I really like it for seeing the footwork and weight transfer in the shot. If you want to see the position of the hands and whether or not the racket and left hand follows a similar path to the Type 3 ATP forehand BG has outlined in his articles last spring and early summer her on Tennisplayer, you can see it a lot better in TP's own high speed archives which include plenty of really high speed shots in HD that you can actually look at frame by frame and blow up in QuickTime player.

Certainly, you can see that Novak changes the grip in his initial unit turn, turning the racket in his right hand (observe the angle of the racket face), but when he completes his turn the racket head is inside instead of outside like a Type III ATP forehand and it is completely vertical. He does close the face about 30 to 45 degrees as he starts forward and while there is a similarity to a "dog pat", there is no where near as much closure of the face as in the normal ATP forehand. It's also going to take a lot more detailed look at a number of players before we make a generalization about all two-handed backhands making this kind of a move. It does seem like there is a movement from closed to square and never the "open to closed" movement that the average misguided spectator thinks is happening to create topspin. It's a very different stroke from a left-handed forehand mirror of an ATP forehand with the right hand underneath for guidance. The left palm (for a righty) plays a huge role, but the right hand has a role to play as well, and probably an even greater one when the option with the grip change is the stroke we are talking about.

I think the most common stroke is the grip change to the continental grip with a half a dog pat (took me a while to figure out PTD was Pat The Dog). I wouldn't teach the PTD. I would let it develop. But I would insist on getting to that initial position with the racket head inside (the intended line of the shot) and vertical and slightly up at the end of the unit turn as opposed to the often adopted one with the racket head in a more outside position (like Roddick) requiring almost a hitch to get the swing started.

A lot of people get away with a much lower margin of error hitting a much flatter ball because they have that second hand on the racket to give them greater control over the swing and racket face.

Finally, I would suggest anyone who wants to see a great two-handed backhand, get a copy of the first set of the women's final. I don't think I have seen a better model of the two-hander than what Li Na was doing, at least in the first set of the finals. It was absolutely pure and free. So many shots hit with perfect balance and demonstrating a perfect role model of footwork, balance and weight-transfer for my two-handed students. I don't know if she was using PTD, but she was hitting it as well as I have ever seen anyone hit it. I'd want to copy that.

don

Some DVD's
please see

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2&page=125

posts #1247 and 1248

[julian1]

Nadal

Practically the same for Nadal

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/RN_BH_Wide&stroke=RN%20BH%20Wide%20OpenStance%20Side1%20500fps.mp4

[julian1]

Nadal #2

I have watched

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/RN_BH_Wide&stroke=RN%20BH%20Wide%20OpenStance%20Side1%20500fps.mp4

It is interesting that during the middle of the swing
palms of hands are very close to each other.
The angle on a contact may dependent of direction of a shot-
i.e is down the line or cross c

[julian1]

Elbow Flexion (?)

Don,
I have sent you an E-mail TODAY.
It "relates" INDIRECTLY to the issue of ELBOW FLEXION for BOTH:
FOREHAND and DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND of Djokovic

One possible video to watch for Djokovic is

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/ND_BH_Arm_Action&stroke=ND%20BH%20Wide%20ArmAction%20Rear1%20250fps.mp4

It is a bit better than a SIDE view because a side view is kind of on
a "WRONG SIDE" of a body (Side views here are right hand side views).
Thank you,
Julian