Why the significant difference between ATP and WTA forehands

[tntenniswhiz]

John, I have greatly benefited from Brian's work on the forehand. I'm hoping you can help me understand how their can be so much difference between the male and female pros? it's like coaches for the guys have kept rhis big secret away from anyone associated with rising female players. As a teaching pro who is striving to become very good at my trade, I'm shocked to see how prevalent this stroke is in the ATP yet there is no info out there except here. While i deeply recognize this is the very best around, somebody else knows this stuff as almost every guy on ATP goes into the slot. So agakn, a gulf seems to exist between WTA and even "aggressive" teaching pros. Thoughts?

[johnyandell]

tntenn,

Yeah it's interesting. Just one point first, which is if you want to be sure I answer post under questions for me. We have a lot of great opinion on this board so I try to stay out of the way so it can come out...

First, the players always lead--the coaches follow. I doubt anyone taught Roger to take that backswing outside and do the flip--it was probably something he just felt.

Eventually, the way Brian has analyzed it will become mainstream--and we are obviously trying to help as is Rick Macci who has totally adopted the approach.

As for the women, Brian and Rick swear they can teach this to women and young girls and I believe them. But why don't they tend to do it on their own? Well Stosur had a coach who taught her a male forehand apparently--see Tom's article this month--she does pretty well with it.

The others? It could be analogous to the pinpoint stance issue which is so prevalent and extreme on the women's side. I spent two days once converting one of the top women's college players to a platform and she and I both felt great about it. Two months later I went to see her match and she was back to the pinpoint. Her explanation: it just felt more natural...

The answer is that I don't know the answer why. But with the continuing evolution of athleticism in the women's game there is no doubt movement toward more convergence and that will continue...look for example at the increased left arm stretch on the forehand by many women players--now if they could just get Brian's backswing...

Look at it this way: it's a tremendous coaching opportunity. That's how Macci took it.

[stroke]

Something that is very interesting to me is how difficult it is to detect what is just "a little off" in one's type 3 forehand that may be preventing them from reaching their best, most efficient form, even with high speed video. I remember on one thread we had going Brian mentioned that Sam had "essentially a type 3 forehand with a couple of notable flaws". This generated a lot of thoughts from our knowledgeable TP forum on what these flaws were, after all this is not the TW message board, and no one got close to being right. Brian finally got back to us and let us know what these flaws were. It was very insightfut, great stuff, but so difficult see for one's self.

[johnyandell]

Yep. That's why 3D is in some cases critical. A measurement can sometimes tell more than even the best qualitative picture--ie, Tennisplayer.net high speed video footage.

[tntenniswhiz]

I must say that I am surprised to hear that something so uniformly found throughout the ATP tour hasn't really been "codified". It makes the work of Brian and the TP team even that much more revolutionary than I originally imagined. I must admit, I've almost memorized the first two articles, striving to build the foundations for the stroke in my own game and those of my students. I can hardly wait for the next installment, and now with even greater anticipation knowing it's to be released in conjunction with the mobile app! I'm praying that android os is going to be included in the that rollout!

[tntenniswhiz]

Something that is very interesting to me is how difficult it is to detect what is just "a little off" in one's type 3 forehand that may be preventing them from reaching their best, most efficient form, even with high speed video. I remember on one thread we had going Brian mentioned that Sam had "essentially a type 3 forehand with a couple of notable flaws". This generated a lot of thoughts from our knowledgeable TP forum on what these flaws were, after all this is not the TW message board, and no one got close to being right. Brian finally got back to us and let us know what these flaws were. It was very insightfut, great stuff, but so difficult see for one's self.

I deeply agree with how easy it is to be fooled into thinking that a forehand has the components of a type 3 when it doesn't accomplish the necessary steps to generate the signature flip. Boiling Brian's explanation down into key teaching points has taken some genuine study, and still have gray areas. I am personally focusing on proper palm down positioning, followed by(shortened version) the downward press taking the racquet below the ball. So eager to see how Macci keys it.

[johnyandell]

Thanks. We are hoping to get Brian to speak at the USPTA national convention and maybe to do a 3 day conference with them to offer to coaches. My experience is that change is really slow in coaching and that a horse only drinks if it wants to--even if it's been led to water...

[GeoffWilliams]

It's not just the snap back forehand (my phrase for the flip, as it "snaps back" towards your ass), that the women don't have, it's also: the snap back serve, the snap back overhead as well. Snap back creates vicious whip lash in the drop position on serve/oh. To begin to physically understand this, you have to: arch your back, put your frame up high in trophy position, and as you dip down into your knee bend, really arch your back and "snap back" viciously under your own elbow/armpit area, in a bouncing motion, so that the hitting area of the string bed goes way past vertical, almost parallel to the ground, way under your elbow, which forces your elbow to rotate up high with the back arch, so that your frame hand becomes extremely heavy, esp. against your first index finger against the grip, and time it with the knee/leg drive upwards, and then let it come down again and again, until you feel that extreme vicious snap back.

It's strange and sad to see so many women not taught this, and their fh, oh and serves are so armed. I think they are taught for consistency, which costs them: rpm, power, and speed of reaction which the snap back provides the men!

No woman cracks the whip.